WINGS and things - advice?

[Dominic]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Simon @ Mar. 10 2003,12:55)]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]One thing i dont like in the gear config is -

Clipping the spg on the left d ring,Most of the gue diving is done in warmish water, so the use of 2-3mm glove are ok,

Try un clipping the spg from the d ring whilst wearing two stages and having a reel on the same d ring, wearing 5 mm gloves whilst at 70-90 m in 4-7 oC.

So far, I've found the best way is to have it clipped to the left D-ring, but use a normal-length hose, instead of one that ends at the hip.

The hose is rigid enough that it stays straight, but you can just grab it and bend it up to be visible no problem, and you don't have to unclip it either.

Mind you, I don't use stages..

[Mark Scott-Simons]

Hobby:

Something that often gets lost in the, sometimes, acrimonious exchanges is that its not that the other rigs are inherently dangerous and you will die if you use one (well except ... oh Vic's not here). It's that at least in IMHO that the system I use is marginally better, in a number of ways. Such as dealing with OOA incident, buoyancy control etc. Its also covers everyform of diving so that I dont have to relearn skills and locations of bits of kit when I change from one style of diving to another.

So its not is a divers kit a "good safe system" but is it as good as the system I use. If it is and if I can afford it I will change. So far noone has demonstrated to my satisfaction such a system.

Except deep commercial diving via bell and surface supply but as I can't affford the £10,000 day running costs I'll stick to scuba.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]I'm not saying that these configs etc are better or worse than DIR,but they certainly exist,safely too,having come about through development as DIR has done elsewhere.

Here's where we differ in that I say the DIR system as I understand it is slightly better in all forms of diving I do (rec , twins, 1 or 2 stages) and I'm told its the same for types of diving I don't do (RB, cave, multi stage). Note this really only applies to non commercial systems. Although used by some public safety divers in North America (equiv to UK Police dive teams) they modify it for dirty water/comms/roped solo dives.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Navies for instance place as much emphasis on psychological make up as physical.The fittest diver can die if they panic

Got to admit I think that coolness under fire is the most important attribute of a diver. Its why I will dive with some, shall we say, less fit people cos I know if I get into trouble they will be able to help me.

There are studies of amateur experienced tech divers that show that they have certain mental and emotional attributes different from the norm.

GUE does believe in producung the best divers so its standards are higher than other equivalents. You can't call that unfair afterall you exercise you right to make your mind up so why cant they stand for what they believe in. If you don't like their standards there are other agencies.

Scotty

[Mark Scott-Simons]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Mark Scott-Simons @ Mar. 11 2003,12:34)]Re Smoking and Parkinsons did they suggest which component(s) was possibly having a beneficial effect? Can you imagine the fun that Big Tobacco going to have with this...

Saying that there's so many noxious components in baccie its not unbleliveable that one (or more) could be having a positive effect, afterall there are plenty of poisens that do good in low doses.

With a nod to Jung I was looking something else up and came across:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]...and protection against: (5) Parkinson's disease, (6) Tourette's disease [tics], (7) Alzheimer's disease, (8) ulcerative colitis and (9) sleep apnea.

There are a number of papers/articles going back at least to 1991 on this subject:

International Journal of Epidemiology, 1991
British Medical Journal, June 22, 1991
Psychopharmacology, 1992
Neuroepidemiology, 1994

[Dr Stevil]

<font color='#0000FF'>I believe it's the nicotine in ciggies which has a beneficial effect via stimulation of the nicotinic-Acetylcholine receptors, a similar argument to that of &quot;smoking assists learning via increased hippocampal long term potentiation&quot; ie increases the strength of the synaptic pathways in the learning centre of the brain.

As for poisons being good in low doses, exactly! There's a really interesting concept known as 'hormetics' which unintentionally provides a scientific basis for homeopathy (Callabrese is probably the most well known author in this field)

Chee-az
Steve

[Davey Willo]

Hi Simon

Sorry for the delay in replying mate I've just got in from work.

Right mate I've just re-read my posts and I'm now sure I wasn't slagging you off anywhere but what I DID do was ask to be pointed to this supposed DIR rule book after you made this statement

To be toatly DIR apart from the equipment config, You have to -
Not drink alcohol
Not take Drugs
Not have sex (before, during or after a dive) so never then
Run at least 5 mile a day

Ok so lets put to one side the nonsense that to be DIR you have to give up alcohol and sex but lets accept that you are expected to be reasonably fit (although being fit does not require you to run 5 miles a day and is usually but not always combined with a healthy lifestyle) and it is also expected that you don't take drugs (Of course!!)

Well I'm no expert but it would appear to me that in reality, to be DIR compliant you would need....

An equipment configuration based on the DIR/Hogarthian system (single or doubles it's your choice) and be a reasonably fit non smoker who adheres to the procedures and principles of the DIR system...

So your question was..

&quot;Who can put there hand on their heart and say they are a DIR diver?&quot;

Well if you mean in the context described by yourself i.e. a sexually frustrated tea totaller who pounds the streets like a professional fighter.. then you will never get a response... but if you mean more fitting the description that I've described above, then theres already two here that I know of who could give a definite yes..

Dave do you run 5 mile a day ?
Are you fecking mad??
do you eat a healthy diet
Hmmmm.... Not as much as I should
do or have you had alchol the night before a dive ?
Yes of course I do/have......

From a personal point of view irrelevant of which context you DID mean it in then at this moment I couldn't hold my hand up anyway as I'm very unfit, my in-water skills need attention and my swimming distance is totally crap... but as I'm hoping to take a DIRF course fairly soon then I'm going to have to get fit, practise and improve my in-water skills and get to the pool and start knocking off laps... But all in all that's surely a good thing.

I hope you aren't offended Simon I've dived with you enough to know that you yourself are an excellent diver, this debate is over your (if you don't mind me saying) rather rash and incorrect statements..

BTW mate I can't find this stuff you mention on the GUE site, can you point me to it?? I am a member so I should be able to access it.

Cheers mate
Dave

[Dominic]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]As for poisons being good in low doses, exactly!

Ehh... anyone who's ever been on a toxicology course will know that there's a very simple rule for determining whether a compound is toxic or not:

Everything is toxic.

Even water and Oxygen do nasty things to us..

A medicine is a medicine when given in an appropriate dose, but when exceeded, it becomes a poison.

[Mark Chase]

<font color='#000F22'>About four pages ago someone mentioned the reverse grouve running down the back of the CD back plate. It keeps the single cylinders streight thats what it's there for. Obviously you have to get the do nut head nuts to use the CD wing but apart from that I have never noticed a problem. I have howevver seen my buddy have his single cylinder almoast at 45deg due to using a standard back plate with his TDK.

On the DIR bit:

[The hose is rigid enough that it stays straight, but you can just grab it and bend it up to be visible no problem, and you don't have to unclip it either.

Mind you, I don't use stagesQUOTE]

My whole kit configuration was compleetly altered by using stages. I now fly the stage rig as standard even when not using them. The stages got in the way of Slob knob, inflator hose, SPG, reels. I for the first time saw the logic of the short over the shoulder inflator hose. A good DIR idea.

I too have moved my SPG from the DIR spot and now attach it to the chest inflator for the dry suit via a small bungey.

I moved my reels &nbsp;from main right back-up left hip D ring to main right back-up back D ring. I moved the bungy suporting my inflator hose to a higher D ring to lift the inflator away from the stage and moved my slob knob to the top Dring on a smal clip.

So as you can see it makes lot of diferance carrying stages.

PS I tryed carrying two 7's on the left to clear my right side for equipment but I hated the trim and balance but mainly I hated the posibuility of puting the wrong reg in my mouth. The cylinders are a lot easia to read when they are seporated and a lot easia to trace the reg hose back to.

I have infact tryed a lot of DIR stuff (except those stupid spools &nbspand found it to be very good but I hate the we are right (WAR) attitude of SOME &nbsp;DIR folowers and thats why I flame it when ever I see a rant.

Any how I am off to smoke a fag, drink a pint, shag the wife and dive but first I must buy some split fins

Mark chase

[Dr Stevil]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Dominic @ Mar. 12 2003,08:14)]

<font color='#0000FF'>If I didn't know you worked for someone else Dom, &nbsp;I would suspect you were the guy who writes the MSDS info for Sigma , it cracks me up when I read what they have to say about boxed water or NaCl &nbsp;

[Hobby]

Scotty,your points are just.What I was getting at is the assumption that many DIR advocates make that anything that is'nt DIR is unsafe,flawed ,etc.I and indeed anybody would be a fool to try and tell you that your chosen system is not the best for you and your diving,I have not your particular experiences and learning curve.
There are &quot;those&quot; however,I'm sure you will agree that will quite happily tell me exactly that,without my experiences,applications etc.if you get my drift.
DIR is of course adaptable to many conditions as the situation/dive demands,a point that many seem to miss I think.
However,many of these adaptations and indeed the basic principles of the DIR configs(true redundancy,self sufficiency,realistic training/drills,streamlining etc.) were taken from other arenas to form DIR(mainly US Cave practice,ex US Navy and US based rec diving)and are to use the cliche,nothing new(the important point to recognise here however is that for the great majority of divers,including some of those adopting DIR it IS something new,but only to them).It's an old argument but the configs were developed for those particular conditions and as with any well developed and practiced system is much safer in other environments when compared to general rec.configs for obvious reasons.
So if we accept that the &quot;bones&quot; of DIR is nothing new(many people see this as a point for critisism which I fail to understand!)but actually shared with other methods eg CDG(who are similar but different due to subtle condition differences etc.and dare I say it,attitudes) which certainly were around before DIR (again not a critisism) one can begin to see that many in these arenas &quot;get their backs up&quot; when told by some DIR advocates that their system is inferior,flawed,whatever.
Your point re.PSD's is interesting,I've had quite a bit to do with this here in the UK as Bren etc will be able to tell you.The subtle difference between our Police divers and PSD's is that our Police divers operate in a search and recovery mode as oppossed to PSD's who actively train and undertake rescues too.It's an unconnected but frightening fact that many PSD's in the US only actually have PADI Rescue or similar(there's no national criteria)!The better ones obviously have the correct training.....again their are several different but all highly efficient/effective progs.for this,the most common being Dive Rescue Int.PSD's can be trained with a DIR based prog by (I think) Mark Lonsdale's school?However the DIR parts of the training are those which are shared with the other forms to a great degree and have already been in place,hence much similarity.
So,aside from some factors ,what I'm trying to say,I think is that DIR itself is not that different at all from other (less well known)configs or practice such as discussed above.I'm not saying that it's better or worse than any altough it may not be particularly applicable to some(I know that DIR has been used in some UK sumps and the adaptations used have brought it very much to CDG practice,the DIR philosophy on Buddies for eg can cause difficulties in these conditions,not a critisism,just a difference)
It comes back to attitude again I suppose,as we've discussed there are many,from whatever experience,background etc,who make somewhat sweeping judgements re,other conditions,configs etc but often without the complete picture,if indeed anyone has such a thing.There are many who will say(I beleive that this is even advocated) that they will not dive with a diver who is not DIR(based upon non DIR being unsafe)which is not really on IMHO.We should all refuse to dive with anyone who we feel is a liability!
I've rambled enough!
Take care,Hobby.

[Dominic]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Steve W @ Mar. 11 2003,11:09)]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]If I didn't know you worked for someone else Dom, &nbsp;I would suspect you were the guy who writes the MSDS info for Sigma , it cracks me up when I read what they have to say about boxed water or NaCl &nbsp;

And don't forget Dihydrogen Monoxide, a dangerous toxin that is also a contributing factor in a huge proportion of scuba incidents.