EKPP Ressel (August 2003)

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (wetlettuce @ April 19 2004,15:03)]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Hi

Didn't give any guidance mate, only an opinion. Deco profile for single 50% deco was 55 mins not including the stops below 21 metres. EKPP profile is 21 minutes shorter but they used O2 at 6 meaning they could make that shorter, say by 11 mins which means a 10 minute difference. Depends I guess on your understanding of 'few'.

I was referring to the bit where you said 'that’s what I would do' perhaps guidance was the wrong word. I have absolutely no comprehension of where you’re getting your numbers. The deco profile using a single deco gas of 50% and running 30/90 GFS (again I stress using DIR's Decoplanner soft where) would be 90 mins. That’s 215% more deco than they planned.


I don’t think that’s a little

I have been on boats where divers have missed 20mins of stops out of a 60min profile and got bent. These guys are shaving 50% off of accepted MINIMUM decompression profiles using tables not wrist computers. Such profiles can only be considered after lengthy build up periods where the limits are gradually pushed further and further back but the margin for error becomes non-existent.

Do you honestly think it’s worth it for the sake of another 20mins in the water?

I cant believe that very basic level technical training as offered in DIR Tech1 would expose divers to those sort of profiles as a mater of course.

People can do what they like it doesn’t bother me but its important that on open forums like this that someone points out how just how far off the map these chaps are.

Its worth noting that GUE the commercial wing of DIR do not even offer the option of running these sorts of profiles in their dive planning soft where. You can no plan a dive above 100/100GF or straight Bhulman using Decoplanner and you don’t get any reduction in deco for using He in the deco gas it loads up the deco like most other soft wear packages.

If GUE are so confident that their test data is correct and Bhulman was wrong, why does their Decoplanner system not reflect these developments?

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]As deco is not an exact science I do not understand how you can say that they are cutting deco. We have talked previously about how the computers algorithms pad deco and do not treat helium correctly, or at least differently to how most recent research informs us.

What computer? I was using straight Bhulman Tables on 100/100GF using ZHL16B tables

Had I used ZHL16C (computer based system) it would have given me 94mins of deco

If ZHL16B is considered a base line for deco and they are over 100% below that baseline I cant see any other description that fits apart from cutting deco.

I have run 40/90 and 50/90 profiles and I know how knackered I felt after the dives. Now I run 20/80 and I feel better. I have no doubt in my mind that if I ran the above profile I would get bent.

I will be very interested to see how your own personal deco profiles develop when you start running 45mn bottom times at these depths. Sub 30min profiles under 50m depths are easy and you can get away with murder but the clock really starts ticking after 50m and 40mins down there. Personally I noticed the difference straight away but then despite 9hours of badminton a week,  I am 40 and over weight so you might not feel it so acutely.

ATB

Mark Chase

[Mark]

<font color='#000080'>Hi Mark,

like WL said (as Tech-1 divers) we would calculate the dive as needing 55mins of deco with a single deco gas (50%).  With the rule applied for also having O2 the EKPP profile is only 6mins short of what I would calculate for myself.

The proper use of deepstops (3m/min ascent from 80% of max ATAs up to 21m), the shape of the intermediate stops and proper use of the deco gas &amp; O2 window is what makes this profile and others like it work.

Regards,

Mark.

[And]

<font color='#000080'>

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]I cant believe that very basic level technical training as offered in DIR Tech1 would expose divers to those sort of profiles as a mater of course.

ROTFLMAO

[Andy the Coastie]

<font color='#0000FF'>

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]It’s a sad macho myth rather like 15 years ago when you were not a proper big man diver till you did 60m on air. Most of the 60 on air brigade are dead now and we think of them as mad to have attempted it.

Hey , i'm still alive and walking .

Now , i'm not going into the politics of trimix- hydrox etc etc , as most of you that have met me , get told that you lot know more about it than me , after doing all these modern day courses and progression in mix gas diving.

When i do the 60 mts on AIR, i have with me 2 7 lts stages

Left &nbsp; &nbsp; 34% &nbsp;which i start sucking at 35 mts
Right 100 % &nbsp;which i start sucking at &nbsp; 9 mts

Deco times are personal and VERY TOP SECRET

[Andy the Coastie]

<font color='#0000FF'>

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]I am 40 and over weight so you might not feel it so acutely.

Ling said you was CUDDLY not over weight &nbsp;

It was me that said you wa a fat knacker

[And]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Andy the Commie 2 @ April 19 2004,19:10)]Deco times are personal and VERY TOP SECRET

<font color='#000080'>Hi

Thats probably because you forget and make it up each time LOL

Andy

[Andy the Coastie]

<font color='#0000FF'>NO Andy .

That are personally cut tables, in graph form,,,,,, in my jacket pocket

[Pierre Farrugia]

<font color='#0000FF'>MArk and WL,

When you done tech. 1 , did you use Deco Planner for deco calculations? If yes what was the recommended setting to start with (gf's). Can you show here a dive planned for 55m for 40min using trimix, using 2 deco gases, so that I can actually compare with mine.

[db8us]

Hi Dudes,

we are just diving our usual stuff. About the paralysis-risk..that would be the case if you fuck it up in the deep part.
By the way, this is where the VR3 kicks in...
i PERSONALLY know at least 3 guys with HEAVY bends (not only just Type I) after long and/or deep dives with the VR3.
I mean profiles like 80m for more than 1hour.
The deep-stops seem to be to shallow and to short and then the shallow stops can not cure that.
So go on have fun with the VR3 :-)

But everyone should just go on and use whatever they find apropriate for their dives.
We get shorter deco a pure Buehlmann because the He-% is high enough and we keep pN2 and pO2 low.

About the gas-choices...
The He contents matters and the pO2 is second... standard has to be within the team.

We also sometimes do longer deco, but it is good to know who fast one can be out oft the water if needed.
There is really no hurry to race to the surface and so we usually do moderate times.
We think that deco can even be much shorter and we also play around with things like adjustable habitats and we will try this year a deco with only 2 longer stops involved...
Nobody knows if that will work....

We think it might be possible.
All the Coly-Dives in 2003 of every diver went to the Duke-University on a data-logger and the run the data against different models. So we also participate in sharing all our profiles with the University.

This has nothing to do with ego-macho-stuff.
The ego-macho-stuff is the 300m on OC with 1 Min Bottom-time stuff.
You just need to take the risk... thats all...
No skills, nothing...

Michael

[Bob Cooper]

An interesting thread this.....

I was just about to reply saying &quot;Michael will be along soon to give some first hand information&quot; and saw his response. &nbsp;Thanks for your input Michael.

Like I always say &quot;your body needs to do the deco your body needs to do&quot; and not some computer deco generated by some algorithm which bears little relationship to real life and real people.

Interesting thing about this is that they went and played tennis or something after the dive. The deco must have been good for them to do this.

Remember that Wally and the EKPP, WKPP and others are real people doing real dives. &nbsp;The deco info from those dives is far more useful than any computer (which are often designed to &quot;protect&quot; your average resort diver who is smoking, drinking, overweight and unfit)

Everyone gets too hung up on comparing computer generated profiles and numbers. &nbsp;It really isn't that exact. &nbsp;You just need to &quot;do the deco that your body needs to do&quot; &nbsp;That can take years to work out.