intro into cave

[richie wake]

well guys pleases be gentle as i know nothing but I'm getting a urning to experience some cave diving , but can you do the intro course-full cave on a ccr or do you have to learn oc first?
cheers richie

[Janos]

Originally Posted by richie wake

well guys pleases be gentle as i know nothing but I'm getting a urning to experience some cave diving , but can you do the intro course-full cave on a ccr or do you have to learn oc first?
cheers richie

I think opinion is mixed on this one, but I believe that both Martin Robson and Phill Short teach Cave diving on CC. I'm half-tempted myself, but wouldn't like to go back to OC to try it.

Janos

[nigelH]

I put the CCR to one side and did the Cavern course on OC because that's what the instructor I wanted to use prefered.

The skills I wanted to learn were cave skills and the CCR would only have complicated it. I suspect that since the next course I want to do is basically done on side slungs the CCR stays at home again.

[NotDeadYet]

It depends on what you want to do.

My own opinion is learning cave diving is like learning rebreather diving. As Rich Pyle said, after 100hrs all you know is what you don't know. For me, you need a rebreather in a cave if you are doing dives that you can't do logistically on open circuit, it's an advanced tool like a scooter is, not something to be used just for it's own sake. In early cave diving you do not need a rebreather, it's a luxury in most cave dives and a hinderance in a lot more, probably most. Would it seem logical for a novice cave diver to go straight to a scooter? Same applies to a rebreather.

My other argument is that a CCR cave diver is not a complete cave diver. It restricts the number of caves which you can visit, it adds drag, it reduces your ability to get through restrictions, it adds unnecessary bail out (a shallow cave that you can dive a long way in twin 12's becomes a ball ache in CCR because the bailout is still substantial), it adds faff factors (cave diving will fuck up dive kit faster than any other form of diving).

The argument that going back to OC is dangerous is total bollocks. The cave instructor I used never dived in open water, she learned to dive and cave dive at the same time (breaks all the rules but she did it and is one of the best divers I've ever met).

Learning cave CCR I think does not produce a rounded cave diver, it produces a cave diver that can dive in CCR-type caves. As CCR suited caves tend to be deep and long then these are no places for beginner divers anyway.

I very rarely dive CCR in caves, probably 25% of my cave diving at most is CCR. My approach is there has to be some advantage in using CCR rather than using it for the sake of using it. For most of my cave diving then OC suits just as well.

But that's just my opinion and I'm renowned for talking bollocks

Cheers,

Stuart

[richie wake]

if you do the cave course oc are you still qualified to dive in a cave ccr?

[NotDeadYet]

I think technically you are supposed to have a cave CCR cert. I don't have one, how much more you would learn is debatable as to whether or not you could work it out for yourself.

For example, dil management, route finding -- most cave lines are laid by OC divers who tend to take the most direct route, not always best on a rebreather, no vis drills (if you can't see your handset then do you trust your rebreather?), turn point calculation, gas sharing, etc., to name a few. Not complicated but different and possible to work out with some common sense, hence I won't provide answers It's up to you how comfortable you feel diving without CCR cave training.

I don't see the standards & procedures on the IANTD website anymore, but the NACD website lists Intro as an OC only course anyway. I think that is the way to do it. At least get the grounding and a taster on OC for two reasons, you might find that it isn't for you without committing to a full course and you want some level of comfort OC as well because if you bail out then you are an OC diver again. That is not the time to find out that your OC skills are not spot on.

You might run into insurance issues and you might get grief in controlled sites like in some of the US parks without the right cert if diving a rebreather.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Ferg3333]

If anyone would like the IANTD standards pm me

[chrisch]

We are working our way through the long hard grind of cave certification and diving. At least one person on the course with us was CCR and it certainly is not an issue to the instructor in terms of people getting some basic training.

My advice would be to do at least a little bit of cave diving to see if you like it then decide the direction you want to go. Stuart's points are very valid (and he is a very experienced person {that owes me a book})

Having now dived a few caves I can say for certain that I prefer wrecks and regular open water diving. However, my missus has the bug, ironic as it was me that wanted to try it and she was dubious.

If, like us, you dive in France the certification issue is only important in terms of insurance since most of the caves are public access. In the US (as I undertand it) many of the caves are restricted to certified divers only. NB I would point out that training and certification are not the same thing....

Please feel free to PM me if you want some more details of what we have been doing. There's a write up of the trips on my blog too.

Chris

[richie wake]

thanks for the advice guys , i think i will book a intro into cave course later on in the year, i will have my meg buy then so ill see if i can use that for the training.
cheers Richie