Inverted Twins - Cave Agencies

[john scott]

Thanks for the replies.
It's given me some ideas, and I will continue doing the streching exercises just in case.
It does seem to be odd to allow RBs with their inverted cylinders but not OC.

[nigelH]

Originally Posted by john scott

Thanks for the replies.
It's given me some ideas, and I will continue doing the streching exercises just in case.
It does seem to be odd to allow RBs with their inverted cylinders but not OC.

I thought the problem with inverts was the GUE 'big clear water' cave course where you are expected to be looked after by your team of buddies so you need to have the equipment they 'expect'. You mess up everybody else's training if you are different.

In a UK style low vis narrow situation I would have thought anything that makes you more able to manage the problem by yourself was a serious plus. Even the DSAT/PADI operation tolerated my inverts.

[Mal Bridgeman]

Originally Posted by nigelH

I thought the problem with inverts was the GUE 'big clear water' cave course where you are expected to be looked after by your team of buddies so you need to have the equipment they 'expect'. You mess up everybody else's training if you are different.

In a UK style low vis narrow situation I would have thought anything that makes you more able to manage the problem by yourself was a serious plus. Even the DSAT/PADI operation tolerated my inverts.

Nigel


I am not sure if you are being mischevious or whether you are believing the misinformation people like to write about GUE trained divers. A GUE trained diver is expected to be really sorted in terms of diving basics .... buoyancy control, trim, situational awareness, ability to donate gas to highlight just a few.... but on top of that they have a role to enhance the enjoyment of the dive for the rest of the team by helping/assisting where appropriate. So there's no concept of .... "Oooo I have a problem ...I'll do nothing and let my team sort it out for me" ....

HTH
Mal

[Mark Powell]

Originally Posted by Mal Bridgeman

I would be interested too in identifying an instructor who will teach a student in inverts as opposed to an agency standard that does not preclude it. The ease with which such an instructor can be found will provide further info to those choosing that route.

Fliping that around it would be interesting to identify an instructor (other than GUE obviously) who would not teach a student in inverts.

[scuba g]

Originally Posted by James The Badger

To be honest John I think the discussion is pretty much the same as to invert or not period.
It may make shut down easier, but may complicate after failiure procedures such as a team member assisting with diagnostics and signalling to each other. It also means that the rest of your team has to be familiar with an inverted set up and subsequent hose routing/valve postioning. This may be difficult if they do not dive an inverted set up themselves
One thing that was hammered into us was elimination of secondary problems and inverting tanks for a cave course just looks like creating more issues than its solving. You can do a cave course on single tank and really enjoy it

What about redundancy? The cave course usually promotes this, cavern courses are aimed at divers with recreational kit setup, but normally advice a redundant airsource as backup.

[scuba g]

Originally Posted by john scott

Thanks for the replies.
It's given me some ideas, and I will continue doing the streching exercises just in case.
It does seem to be odd to allow RBs with their inverted cylinders but not OC.

If you want to cave dive, then the equipment is there for you to explore, so it should be adapted for you, inverted cylinders give better access if you find your shoulder restricted, also the valves are better protected, otheriwse if diving standard twins get a CD valve protector, I had one of them and they are the business. Id like to hear the view of a GUE cave diver who had a situation were they could no longer reach the valves without having to invert, would they stop diving? Im not taking a crack at them because giving praise they do nail the basics which tend to get forgotten with some divers, but sure adaption is essential? Ive seen some photos of a RB diver on a Meg who has them valve up, that suits them, I can understand the ethos of having kit which is setup a particular way but not all divers might want that.

[JasonP]

Originally Posted by nigelH

In a UK style low vis narrow situation I would have thought anything that makes you more able to manage the problem by yourself was a serious plus. Even the DSAT/PADI operation tolerated my inverts.

But you can't manage all the problems yourself. If you're diving with a manifold, you've got a single point of failure. And if it keeps smacking off the ceiling, there's a real possibility that it might go. It's not like UK open water diving for instance. If you use sidemounts, you're completely self sufficient. And there are plenty of caves in Mexico which have sidemount only passages. The way limestone faults means you get very wide, but very low passages.

I looked at your pics of your inverted rig yesterday. There's no way I'd take that into a cave. Far too many snag points.

Jason

[Mal Bridgeman]

Originally Posted by scuba g

Id like to hear the view of a GUE cave diver who had a situation were they could no longer reach the valves without having to invert, would they stop diving? Im not taking a crack at them because giving praise they do nail the basics which tend to get forgotten with some divers, but sure adaption is essential?.

I am hardly the most experienced GUE Trained Cave diver[1] ...so this is my own perspective....if I could no longer shutdown my valves conventionally, I would stop diving where a shutdown was an essential skill....(same with deco diving)

One has to be true to one's self .... if you believe that a skill is essential when you learned it .... how can it stop being essential cos you can no longer do it?

Mal

[1] I don't know that there is a concept of a GUE Cave diver.

[James The Badger]

Originally Posted by scuba g

What about redundancy? The cave course usually promotes this, cavern courses are aimed at divers with recreational kit setup, but normally advice a redundant airsource as backup.

My mis quote, I did mean a cavern course

[JasonP]

Originally Posted by scuba g

otheriwse if diving standard twins get a CD valve protector, I had one of them and they are the business.

They might be alright in open water. They look like a horrendous line trap to me.

There's a reason why cave divers from all the agencies have broadly very similar kit.

Jason