Inverted Twins - Cave Agencies

[NotDeadYet]

Originally Posted by Howard Payne

Non GUE Instructors are usually quite similar to the GUE style of doing things. Our GUE Instructor for Cave 1 had taught for the NACD for ten years before moving over to GUE only two years ago. We asked what he had to change to make the crossover and his reply was almost nothing at all - he teaches much the same stuff now as he did then.

Dead right. Not meant as a pop at GUE but they've invented very little in cave diving technique in the grand scheme of things. People go on about them trying to force new stuff on everyone but as Howard says, they are teaching pretty much exactly what was taught a long time ago. When I did my cave course (11yrs ago) JJ was teaching for the NACD and David Rhea was pretty high up in it too. I'd bet that the NACD course I did isn't that far removed from a GUE course today.

[scuba g]

For already explored caves and sumps, then a system where all divers are uniformly trained and kitted might be a more acceptible way to plan and do the dive, for the systems that are yet undived or havent been penatrated to its full extent, thats where a flexible approach to what you would kit yourself with, twinset, sidemount, rebreather etc, I havent got alot of cave diving experience, am doing the full cave this year, but havent been instructed by someone who has spent over half their life exploring cave systems and watching their approach and how they have dived, to me, shows that in alot of cases you need to be self sufficent primarily, followed by being able to assist your buddy, where in UK caves anyway, are near pitch black, silty and not as attractive as the warmer water spring caves. I personally dont warm to the GUE way, but thats not to say I havent adapted alot of the excellent techniques teach, but for me to dive in the caves that I want to dive, means sidemount only in the majority of times as being a large chap, I wouldnt fit. Anyway, hope you find your flexibility again if the GUE is your route, if not, adapt and dive and most important, enjoy yourself!

[JasonP]

Originally Posted by NotDeadYet

Interesting. I could show you quite a few places where you can get in with a backmounted set but there is absolutely no way you'd be able to share gas. Or shut down the manifold for that matter. Real life is a hell of a lot different to drills, possibly one of the biggest hinderances is getting an out of air signal where divers have restricted movemnt. If you can't turn round how do you signal the diver behind. Remember, your remaining life is being measured in seconds.

I would think that shutting down the manifold would be impossible in plenty of places as would signalling OOA. But if you're already sharing gas when you get to the restriction, you should, in an ideal world, be able to get thru it. I must admit, I'm finding the idea of sidemounts more attractive though I think getting the config right would take a fair bit of doing.

Jason

[ardhill]

So, for those who feel that most cave instructors teach the same as GUE...

How come GUE don't teach sidemounts?

I believe (though do this is only from reading their web site) that both Martyn Farr and Richard Stevenson only teach sidemount diving in UK/Ireland caves.

I also believe (but do not have practical knowledge) that Martyn Farr also teaches that a UK cave diver should be self sufficient and independent, and will often dive solo.

Those who have been on Martyn's or Richard's course are welcome to correct me.

I also have a TDI kit configuration video where a cave instructor is explaining his set-up. Twin independent back mounts with bungied long hose and Poseidon cyclones coming over each shoulder - not exactly the same as GUE!

As far as I can see it - it is the correct equipment and configuration for the situation and environment, not that all situations will fit into a particular configuration.

[NotDeadYet]

Originally Posted by ardhill

So, for those who feel that most cave instructors teach the same as GUE...

How come GUE don't teach sidemounts?

A basic cave course of any flavour will not teach sidemount other than to mention the existence of the style. It is by and large kept for specialty courses.

The exception would be Martyn's courses but he is teaching what is appropriate for diving here. Does Richy teach in UK conditions? I'm surprised at that but there you go.

I can only go from course reports but none of them sound any different from what was taught on mine 11yrs ago. Apart from DIR specific recent developments and the 1/6ths restriction I'd be interested to hear what GUE do diiferently. Cave diving isn't open water diving and GUE have simply inherited a very long tradition that was well standardised for years before GUE existed. They may have refined it for GUE course standards but I'll still bet it what is taught isn't vastly different from what was taught ten or fifteen years ago.

I'm sure some "active & experienced" GUE cave divers will correct me... (yes that was a gratuitous dig )

[NotDeadYet]

Originally Posted by JasonP

I would think that shutting down the manifold would be impossible in plenty of places as would signalling OOA. But if you're already sharing gas when you get to the restriction, you should, in an ideal world, be able to get thru it. I must admit, I'm finding the idea of sidemounts more attractive though I think getting the config right would take a fair bit of doing.

Jason

Assuming that you won't get a problem whilst in the restriction is a luxury you don't have. A lot of restrictions are sustained, a lot of caves have sustained tight passage which is very committing. A problem there could easily become disastrous. E.g. rear diver is out of air in a narrow passage, can't signal, can't shut down, buddy can't assist... Now how does diver 1 in front get out? And people criticise the CDG for diving solo and in sidemounts...

[scuba g]

When you read the The Darkness Beckons and you see the early black and white photos of early caving pioneers in the UK systems you have to look at how they specifically started diving just to extend what they couldnt do as cavers, so they adapted equipment and techniques which had no real relavance to ocean diving (apart from being a contained breathing unit), they merely wanted to get through sumps which in alot of cases would test a contortionist to their limit, so using sidemounts made life easier. Martyn does (referencing Diving in Darkness) discuss solo diving and that in situations where its pitch black and the sh*t has hit the fan, they only person who has the best chance of saving you, may be yourself.

[MarkP]

Originally Posted by JasonP

Why? You posted:

"If you're in an environment where gas sharing isn't a realistic proposition due to space etc., then I suspect a mainfold is a distinct disadvantage."

I was implying that on these occasions sidemount is the way to go. I thought that "This view is from a diver who used to use back-mounted indie twins but eventually realised that manifolds made life easier." implied it. I now see that it's possible to misinterpret my statement. Apologies.

Originally Posted by JasonP

I don't agree. If you can get into the space in a rig with a manifold, there's enough room to share gas.

I agree. Ask Terry H about my feelings regarding back mounted indies...

[JasonP]

Originally Posted by NotDeadYet

Assuming that you won't get a problem whilst in the restriction is a luxury you don't have. A lot of restrictions are sustained, a lot of caves have sustained tight passage which is very committing. A problem there could easily become disastrous. E.g. rear diver is out of air in a narrow passage, can't signal, can't shut down, buddy can't assist... Now how does diver 1 in front get out? And people criticise the CDG for diving solo and in sidemounts...

And in those sorts of caves, sidemounts are clearly the way to go. I find it ironic that some instructors, having crossed over to GUE, are now anti-sidemount, despite having used that configuration in the past to lay thousands of feet of line.

Jason

[MarkP]

Originally Posted by JasonP

I find it ironic that some instructors, having crossed over to GUE, are now anti-sidemount, despite having used that configuration in the past to lay thousands of feet of line.

Interesting - any names?