Inverted Twins - Cave Agencies

[grazie42]

I don´t see any issue with inverts in caves as long as you can find someone to teach the course and someone to dive with you afterwards...my limited experience is that anything "non-standard" makes people who don´t know you less inclined to (cave)dive with you, this would propably be my first reaction to inverts as well...

I don´t see the twins vs. inverts as "the same discussion" as twins vs. sidemount. Both twins and SM are accepted and taught by all "cave-agencies" (except maybe gue?). Whether you get to use them in the "standard course" is really down to the enviroment where the course is taught (or where the student will be diving after the course). Sort of like drysuit vs. wetsuit...

ymmv

[Howard Payne]

Oh Stuart I'm so dissappointed in you. Surely you should have worked out the score by now? The experienced GUE cave divers are all out cave diving - the numpties are busy arguing about it on the internet!

The point I made about Florida / Mexico / France was that it's not UK style sidemount diving - seems to be a different kettle of fish entirely.

[ardhill]

Originally Posted by NotDeadYet

A basic cave course of any flavour will not teach sidemount other than to mention the existence of the style. It is by and large kept for specialty courses.

The exception would be Martyn's courses but he is teaching what is appropriate for diving here. Does Richy teach in UK conditions? I'm surprised at that but there you go.

The comment wasn't meant to be a dig at anyone Stuart, just that (as you are more aware than many on this thread) every cave dive does not suit ONE configuration.

Richie Stevenson...

He does offer the choice of UK on his web site, though he isn't exactly bubbling with enthusiasm over UK cave diving

Originally Posted by Deep Blue Diving

Route 1 is to undertake Cavern, Intro and Full Cave Training here in the UK over 3 separate training modules using side mounted cylinders

Cave Diving Course

[NotDeadYet]

Originally Posted by Howard Payne

Oh Stuart I'm so dissappointed in you. Surely you should have worked out the score by now? The experienced GUE cave divers are all out cave diving - the numpties are busy arguing about it on the internet!

The point I made about Florida / Mexico / France was that it's not UK style sidemount diving - seems to be a different kettle of fish entirely.

Howard, in a backhanded kind of way I was actually trying to give a bit of praise to GUE. I'd hate to do it openly

[cgrosart]

Only because it hasn't been mentioned - one thing you can do with sidemounts that would be almost impossible to do with backmounts - manifold or otherwise, for most people, is, in the event of valve failure or similar i.e unstoppable freeflow - it is very easy (and a skill the CDG teach and expect to be practised) to turn the cylinder tap on and off for each breath. It's not difficult, with practise, to get yourself home this way if you had to. When I first dived in caves with backmounts, it made me feel a little uncomfortable that this was one less option open to me. I do dive backmount abroad, but build in a hell of a lot more conservatism and take stages.

[Howard Payne]

I was actually trying to give a bit of praise to GUE

Can we get that in writing.

Interestingly when we asked Fred why he crossed over to GUE - he said because the standard of the divers coming into the courses he teaches was consistant and predictable with GUE and they then went away and worked on stuff after the courses and progressed.

He said that before - he could spend a week just getting some people in to some sort of shape so they could even start a cave course

Turning cylinders the right way up and stuff like that no doubt?

[JasonP]

Originally Posted by Howard Payne

He said that before - he could spend a week just getting some people in to some sort of shape so they could even start a cave course

Turning cylinders the right way up and stuff like that no doubt?

Probably just diving with a twinset. You only need OW and 50 dives to start the cave courses with some agencies. And Intro Cave is taught on a single. So sometimes the instructor spends half the course teaching someone how to use a twinset. Our instructor did comment that it made things a lot easier that he didn't have to do this with us.

Jason

[Steve Summers]

Originally Posted by Howard Payne

He said that before - he could spend a week just getting some people in to some sort of shape so they could even start a cave course

Turning cylinders the right way up and stuff like that no doubt?

I thought Gooey didn't allow inverts?

Safe diving,
Steve

[iainmsmith]

Originally Posted by [B

James The Badger][/b]
I was just thinking about the prosses of managing a post or valve faliure with one team member with inverts:
3 man team are exiting
number 3 has post valve failiure (as yet undiagnosed)
Signals attention to number 2, who turns to assist
number 1 holds facing 2 & 3
Number 3 has tried to shut down inverted valves but can't locate bubbles Problem 1: due to distance from his ears shuts wrong valve down so turns to allow number 2 to assist/diagnose
Problem 2: disturbed silt from roof and bottom increased due to having to turn 360
Problem 3: diver 2 is obstructed by diver 3 legs/body when manipulating valves to assist in diagnosis, more silt kicked
Problem 4: all the team are now facing back into the cave with reduced viz

Originally Posted by Janos

Run that scenario again with valves-up tanks and number one (the lead diver) having the problem and you have exactly the same issues as you describe.

Actually, you don't. #1 turns to face #2 (and #3, who locks on the line, referencing the exit)

#1 does not have to do any more turning to allow #2 to look at his valves if necessary. (vs James' description in which #2 turns to face #3, then #3 has to turn to allow #2 to access valves...and #1 has had to turn to find out what is going on). Less turning around means less likelyhood of Problem 2 arising. And as only #1 is facing back, Problem 4 doesn't arise.

However, silting is a possibility, but both #2 and #3 are facing in the right direction, #3 is referencing the line and the moment the viz starts going, all three should be locking onto the line and referencing the exit.

Last time I looked, no diver I know has legs growing out of their shoulders, so unlike James' scenario, there is no problem with access to the valves so Problem 3 doesn't arise.

Touche.

Why, no sir. But allow me...

Touché

Iain

[Steve Summers]

Originally Posted by iainmsmith

Actually, you don't. #1 turns to face #2 (and #3, who locks on the line, referencing the exit)

#1 does not have to do any more turning to allow #2 to look at his valves if necessary. (vs James' description in which #2 turns to face #3, then #3 has to turn to allow #2 to access valves...and #1 has had to turn to find out what is going on). Less turning around means less likelyhood of Problem 2 arising. And as only #1 is facing back, Problem 4 doesn't arise.

However, silting is a possibility, but both #2 and #3 are facing in the right direction, #3 is referencing the line and the moment the viz starts going, all three should be locking onto the line and referencing the exit.

Last time I looked, no diver I know has legs growing out of their shoulders, so unlike James' scenario, there is no problem with access to the valves so Problem 3 doesn't arise.

Interesting, but I'm sure the kind of team serious about cave diving in inverts would agree on some procedures and protocols [albeit sub optimal] that would avoid much of the above. For instance the stricken diver could hold the line with both hands [in a T body position] while the other divers checked them over without the need for whirling dervish impressions or indeed anyone letting go of the line.

After another one of these discussions many years ago with a now silent direr trotting out the ''unable to pinpoint the leak due to distance from the ear'' I went for a bimble with my manifold slightly undone on one side, it was very easy to feel the bubbles with my hand, I concede it was easier as I knew it was there, but it is an option if it happened for real.

The fact is inverting isn't for everyone the same as gue/dir isn't for everyone, the difference IME being that most inverters realise there is more than one way to skin a cat.......or dive optimally.

Safe diving,
Steve