Cave diving UK

[Redshift]

Why is the CGD the right way to go? There are other groups cave diving and going to places where the land owners require insurance. I've just been to the Bakewell chert mine today and no one in the group was part of the CGD and we were granted access. There are other people who know how to cave dive, not just CGD members.

[NotDeadYet]

Why is the CGD the right way to go? There are other groups cave diving and going to places where the land owners require insurance. I've just been to the Bakewell chert mine today and no one in the group was part of the CGD and we were granted access. There are other people who know how to cave dive, not just CGD members.

When you go somewhere with access arrangements then more than likely that site will have had that access negotiated by the CDG in the first place. There is also a very good chance that the lines you are following when you are there were laid by the CDG and if you have a topo then it is more than likely drawn by the CDG.

True there is no reason to be a CDG member (I hate to say it but my membership has lapsed by a couple of years) but there is as far as I know no other group which provides training and support for free (there is a weekend training camp coming up where all the training is being provided entirely by the members' goodwill), as well as maintaining very good databases of sites & surveys, negotiating with both landowners and insurers, etc. A bit like if BSAC were also to take on the mantle of finding and documenting new wrecks, negotiating with boat skippers, etc. All for something like £60 a year.

There are many ways to skin a cat but for someone wanting to learn to cave dive in the UK there are really only two choices, the CDG or Martyn Farr. IIRC Martyn generally suggests that divers approach the CDG even after training with him. I've trained with both the CDG and a "commercial" resurgence flopping course and by far the commercial courses don't fully equip you for UK cave diving.

Cheers,

Stuart

[McBad]

Why is the CGD the right way to go? There are other groups cave diving and going to places where the land owners require insurance. I've just been to the Bakewell chert mine today and no one in the group was part of the CGD and we were granted access. There are other people who know how to cave dive, not just CGD members.

Good question. I agree with what NotDeadYet has written (although the training camp he refers to was last w/e, so you've missed it for this year!).

So, does your 'group' carry public liability insurance for cave diving activities? I hate the way the UK is becoming an insurance based litigation- happy country, but that is the way it is.

Of course there are loads of people who know how to cave dive. It's just that some cave divers do it in ways that are not so likely to fcuk it up for all other cave divers if something goes wrong.

M.

[Redshift]

I don't know how that training camp or the instruction provided by the CDG work. It seems to be somewhat informal. Is there a certification? Would you be able to dive somewhere else in the world?

But I will definately try to know more about the CDG and affiliated clubs because I also like dry caving. I wasn't trying to minimize the work they do, I was just pointing out that there are other options.

Where do they publish their work? Are the topographies available anywhere? There is nothing on their on-line shop. In many other countries people study and survey cave systems and they make all the info available to the public.

[Duncan Price]

I don't know how that training camp or the instruction provided by the CDG work. It seems to be somewhat informal. Is there a certification? Would you be able to dive somewhere else in the world?

There is a certification and the means to become a Qualified CDG member are to be found on the CDG website. Basically, join the group under the mentoring system, complete the required number of training dives, demonstrate competance by passing the theory and practical tests. The training camps introduced in recent years are a useful opportunity for old and new members to meet, swap skills etc. etc. The CDG has a Qualification Card which is widely accepted as proof of competance at overseas cave diving locations (its got me into a lot of places anyways...).

Where do they publish their work? Are the topographies available anywhere? There is nothing on their on-line shop. In many other countries people study and survey cave systems and they make all the info available to the public.

They publish their work in the CDG Newsletter (quarterly) and also in printed Sump Indexes. A subscription to the former (also back issues) and copies of the latter* can be purchsed from the online shop. Members (and I believe newsletter subscribers) can access back-issues of the CDG N/L online by means of a password.

I think that you will find that information on cave diving sites in the UK is widely available, more so than in many countries where the location and extent of cave systems is often a closely guarded secret. In the UK - apart from a few locations which are commercially run show caves, you can pretty much turn up at a site (with the owner's permission and appropriate PL cover) and go diving. Where more specific access agreements do exist, the landowners usually insist on PL cover - for caving this is administered by the British Caving Association who require that people seeking cover for cave diving are members of the CDG (in the same way that they insist that anyone seeking cover for the use of explosives is a member of the Explosive's User Group).

* I should know - I wrote two of them.

[gallathan]

PL insurance can be had from BCA, as a direct indiviual member, as well as through the CDG/a friendly caving club. I'm not querstioning/knocking that, its an excellent idea, BUT I wasnt aware of the requirement to be a member of the CDG to go cave diving in the UK. In fact I'd seriously question that, are you sure thats correct?

[Duncan Price]

PL insurance can be had from BCA, as a direct indiviual member, as well as through the CDG/a friendly caving club. I'm not querstioning/knocking that, its an excellent idea, BUT I wasnt aware of the requirement to be a member of the CDG to go cave diving in the UK. In fact I'd seriously question that, are you sure thats correct?

That's the rub. I know that BCA PL insurance can be obtained individually as well as through caving clubs. When the scheme first started there was a price differential between caving cover (green PL card) and that including cave diving (blue PL card). The BCA (or perhaps their insurers) insisted that cave diving cover was only available to CDG members as a means of ensuring "quality control" of applicants (in the same way that explosives cover is only available to members of the EUG).

The results of an analysis of cave diving accidents carried out be the CDG served to show that there was little additional risk to cavers involved in cave diving over ordinary speleological activities got the CDG premium reduced to that of ordinary caving cover (or it maybe that the population of cave divers is so small that the insurance doesn't treat them as a special case - a bit like my occupational life cover). Personally, I don't see why BCA cover for cave diving is (apparently) only available to CDG members - if the Group has a monopoly on this, then it is not of its own doing. Perhaps someone who is not a CDG member should apply to BCA for cover although their FAQ sheet (http://british-caving.org.uk/members...3_FAQ_2008.pdf) says:

63 Q: Are cave divers expected to pay more?

A: No. Cave divers are covered via their CDG membership.

and

65 Q: Can I be insured for cave diving without joining the Cave Diving Group?

A: No. CDG is the representative member body of BCA for cave divers. We do not recognise any other body as representing cave divers.

So there you go.

However, to answer the question more directly:

All caving & cave diving sites are on property which is owned by someone - the landowner may insist on PL insurance for access - in which case visitors should have the appropriate level of PL cover. For many places, landowners do not insist on this and you are free to go there at you own risk to the consequences of a subsequent claim. There has never been a claim on the BCA PL cover (nor its predecessors. PL cover for cave diving is (apparently) only available to CDG members.

Therefore you do not need to be in the CDG to go cave diving in the UK, however, you can't get PL insurance (at least thruogh the BCA scheme) for it unless you are.

Temporary membership of the CDG (for a period of 14 days - though the BCA site states that 17 days PL cover is associated with this) is available to suitably experienced individuals who are not permanent UK residents.

[Redshift]

I know that there are other insurance companies giving PL to cave divers. I can't remember names but will try to find out.

But, at least for me, the biggest question is why should PL insurance be needed? If you are certified and go dive a cave e someone's land and have an accident why should the land owners be responsible for anything and why should they be affraid to be prossecuted? That may be one of the reasons there haven't been any claims by cave divers. Because they know that if they "fu...k" up it's their own fault, not the owner of the cave! And for me it's silly even to think that a court would rule in favour of the diver or it's family in case of accident and make the owner liable for anything. I bet there are more accidents of people falling down the stairs when visiting a friend and no one requires visits to have PL insurance!

[McBad]

I know that there are other insurance companies giving PL to cave divers. I can't remember names but will try to find out.

But, at least for me, the biggest question is why should PL insurance be needed? If you are certified and go dive a cave e someone's land and have an accident why should the land owners be responsible for anything and why should they be affraid to be prossecuted? That may be one of the reasons there haven't been any claims by cave divers. Because they know that if they "fu...k" up it's their own fault, not the owner of the cave! And for me it's silly even to think that a court would rule in favour of the diver or it's family in case of accident and make the owner liable for anything. I bet there are more accidents of people falling down the stairs when visiting a friend and no one requires visits to have PL insurance!

I think it is more about 'third parties', at least that is my understanding of it.

Lets say you go cave diving somewhere, with the land owners permission, and next day Joe Public walks in, takes a nosey in the mine entrance and trips over a dive line you've left tied off just in there. He breaks every bone in his body, suffers stress, broken glasses and loss of earnings and wants to sue someone.

You and I would say he should have been looking where he was going and not have been such a twat. However, he'll look to sue the person who has the money or the insurance (or an ambulance chasing lawyer will tell him that he should go and look for such a person to sue). So, he'll come looking and thankfully in this case the cave diver is a CDG member and has the appropriate PL cover and the insurers potentially pay up...

If the cave diver had not been insured Joe Public would have gone looking for the land owner as the next most liable person and likely to have money or insurance. That costs the land owner and may well dent his enthusiasm for hosting cave divers in future.

I stand to be corrected but as I understand it the BCA PL insurance is about protecting the land owner who gives you access from third party claims, it is not about protecting you (although you may be able to get insurance for that too).

M.

[Duncan Price]

But, at least for me, the biggest question is why should PL insurance be needed?

The insurance is to cover you (or your dependents - in the case of most cave diving accidents which are invariably fatal), not the landowner. If you f**k up, then the farmer's field might get trashed by the rescue services who turn out to recover your body. Whilst the landowner might get compensated by his insurers, they will be looking to recoup their money from you (or your family).

In the UK there is no charge for cave rescue (despite misguided attempts by various MP's over the years to do so), this is not the case abroad. For example, Speleo Secours (French Cave Rescue) charge for their services and insurance is advisable (above and beyond DAN cover for recompression etc.)

If someone falls down your stairs (even if they break in) and you haven't maintained them, then they can claim against you. This generally part of your household insurance cover.

I would be interested in any brokers prepared to underwrite cave diving (including caving) activities in the UK - particularly if it is cheaper.

To repeat what I said earlier: I'm not saying that PL insurance is necessary (your call). Some landowners require it (in particular show caves - which have more to lose by disruption of business). Unfortunately the only policy (I know of) specific to the UK is only available through the BCA....which is only available to CDG members...

At no point am I saying that you need PL cover or must be in the CDG to cave dive in the UK.

Access was denied to several caves in 2003 when, for a time, there was no national PL cover for caving. Everyone carried on caving/cave diving, but some sites (e.g. Wookey Hole) were no go as a consequence.

Footnote: I can't comment on access to Home Bank Chert Mine re: PL insurance but I do know that access Noxon Park Iron Mines (on Forest Enterprises - formerly the Forestry Commission - land*) is administered by an access group which insists that visitors have PL cover and that no commercial training is carried out there.

* they also own Dinas Rock Silica Mine.