Giving up

[DannyB]

Am I the only CCR Diver who is debating giving it up as I don't understand why so many people have died on them this year?

I have been concerned for a while, there seems to have been a lot of CCR deaths this year, yesterday (Sunday) I lost a friend. I am seriously wondering if we've all missed something and they really are gonna kill us...

What are your thoughts?

Danny.

[DiveBuddy2]

As the footnote says life isn't measured by the breath you take but what takes your breath. Live your life and enjoy it, the way you want to live it.

I'm really sorry you lost a friend yesterday .................but it was his time to go, be happy for the times you shared and that he was part of your life but ultimatley it was his time to go.

No matter what he died from yesterday it was his time to move on from this world.

Look at it another way if he had died of lung cancer and you smoked would you give up?

In a road accident would you never get in a car again, or walk the streets?

Life is so short we don't know when our time will come but when it does remember the times you shared and the memories because they will live in your heart forever.

Live your life doing want you want to do, what happened to your friend may never happen to you but if it it did, then it would be your time to go.

[Mark Chase]

Yes I have given serious thought to quitting CCR diving especially after Penny's, Zac's (in the USA not our Zac) and Rob's death's. All much better divers than me, all instructors and all faced with imposable situations on a ccr.

Digging into what happened helps a bit, because there is always a reason. However if they can screw up then I am twice as likely to.

I am 42 this year and I have decided to quit CCR diving and deep (past 50m) diving aged 45. I think CCR diving past 50m justifies the extra risk and complexity of equipment but less than that its not really necessary. I would go as far as to say 60m+ on CCR is safer than on OC. This is because you can run very high Helium percentages economically and you have almost limitless gas time to let you sort out a problem.

Having been at a humble 65m with an "issue" on OC i can tell you that gas pressure drops reeeeeeely fast when you don't want it to. However the problem on CCR is if you become stressed and start breathing harder you instantly think "whats wrong with the unit?" Just checking the PP02 is not enough to calm you down because you know there is Co2 and dodgy cells to worry about. I have had to have a little chat with my self down there and calm my self down but ultimately I have taken a leap of faith that its me not the unit and been correct / lucky so far.

IMHO if you want to stay alive on CCR you have to have more than adequate bail out with good high percentages of helium in it for deeper dives. You need to be scared a bit and you need to bail out if it doesn't feel right. Something I have failed to do twice now .

I think Full face masks have good safety advantages and gaged BOV's also offer a safety net for buddy diving and a far easier way of bailing out. However I think they need to be rigged to big off board tanks.

Apart from that you just have to accept that diving is dangerous.

ATB

Mark Chase

[Phoenix]

I have certainly been thinking hard about it, we have a baby due in 8 weeks time so it is only right that I assess the risks that I am taking properly. In my case I have ordered a FFM as, like Mark, I believe that these go some way to improve your surviveability in the event of a tox situation. I would also like to avoid diving solo, however that one isn't quite so easy due to logistical & financial constraints meaning I can't commit to diving as often as I'd like.

I would really like to see more open debate on the causes of fatalities, every time one happens there is this "let's not discuss this now as it will upset the families" line that comes out and this stifles the debate. Obviously we want to avoid speculation but we are told to "wait for the facts" which never seem to be released or distributed. The greater our understanding of what can go wrong then surely the greater our ability to plan for eventualities becomes.

Ian

[Darren A]

Originally Posted by DannyB

Am I the only CCR Diver who is debating giving it up as I don't understand why so many people have died on them this year?

I have been concerned for a while, there seems to have been a lot of CCR deaths this year, yesterday (Sunday) I lost a friend. I am seriously wondering if we've all missed something and they really are gonna kill us...

What are your thoughts?

Danny.

Just my very humble opinion Danny, and I'm not a CCR diver, so take this with a spadeful of salt!

If you are seriously thinking like this, then maybe it is time to stop diving your CCR.

The main reason being, you are obviously not enjoying it! You're only 31, why not go back to OC for while, until some of the more serious issues which you are obviouly concerned about have been sorted with RBs. Then you can take up where you left off in a few years. But then I'm sure many will disagree

Dive safe whatever you dive!

Darren

[smudger]

Yes another one who has considered giving up.
When I first looked at the rebreather route I looked at all of them and particularly the RB80 which looked to be a very good gas extending tool. I finally settled on the KISS Classic manual inlet and only the sensors are electionic so that seemed the best option, I then did my MOD1 with all the difficulties involved very quickly found me questioning the reasons for buying it.
I have learnt a few lessons firstly I have made no saving buying a 2nd hand unit with all the replacement parts it has cost as much if not more.
I would not take the Kiss Classic passed its depth rating or play with the set up too much.
It is a good robust unit for mid range diving and as an intro to rebreathers a very good tool.
Next was my MOD2 and this is where my problems really started. Doing an exercise at over 40m having all my inflation on the suit and dropping a stage I started to float away from the stage. So started finning heavily to get back with head down and soon got out of breath as I think I was probably out breathing the unit. I then gave myself hypercapnia as my PPO2 dropped and CO2 levels would have been building up. I think it was the scariest moment of my diving career.
The end result was that I bailed off and this gave me even more problems I looked at my 7lt stage and having been used to carring all my own bail out looked at my timer looked up and suddenly realised I could not make the surface. At this point I have to add I had not done the lecture on group bail out. So was pretty much in auto pilot concerning bailout.
When I tried to go back on the unit I was not thinking staight and did not flush the unit fast enough so once again up goes the heart rate and breathing rate so back off the unit. It was the second time off the unit and as I looked round and the divers stages around me look chicken legs to a starving man realising I would have enough gas to get up the ascent was relatively hassel free.I was back in the water that afternoon.
Rebreathers are a good tool although you do need to know the pitfalls.
A lot of things that can go wrong are down to the user and our physiology which no computer can compensate for.
I would now not do a sea dive with the potential of getting separated without personal bailout.
The issues surrounding rebreather diving are fairly volatile at the moment however some of the extreme dives would not have been able without them they are a useful tool but that is it a tool they will not keep you alive that is still the divers job as with OC or semiclosed diving.
I know lots of divers that dive without bailout on rebreathers and although I dont agree that is thier choice.
Would I give up?
No even after a scare.
Have I thought about it?
Yes lots but in the end I have to come back to the same answer it wasn't the unit that made the mistake it was me. As much as it might pain me to addmit the rebreather wasn't trying to kill me, it doesn't have a vendatta I just didn't allow it to do it's job.

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Darren A

Just my very humble opinion Danny, and I'm not a CCR diver, so take this with a spadeful of salt!

If you are seriously thinking like this, then maybe it is time to stop diving your CCR.

The main reason being, you are obviously not enjoying it! You're only 31, why not go back to OC for while, until some of the more serious issues which you are obviouly concerned about have been sorted with RBs. Then you can take up where you left off in a few years. But then I'm sure many will disagree

Dive safe whatever you dive!

Darren

No its a valid point, but I have to say that I doubt very much if all CCR divers havent asked them selves this question at one time or another. Actualy i doubt if most OC divers havent asked them selves this question as well.


ATB

Mark Chase

[milldog]

Originally Posted by DiveBuddy2

As the footnote says life isn't measured by the breath you take but what takes your breath. Live your life and enjoy it, the way you want to live it.

I'm really sorry you lost a friend yesterday .................but it was his time to go, be happy for the times you shared and that he was part of your life but ultimatley it was his time to go.

No matter what he died from yesterday it was his time to move on from this world.

Look at it another way if he had died of lung cancer and you smoked would you give up?

In a road accident would you never get in a car again, or walk the streets?

Life is so short we don't know when our time will come but when it does remember the times you shared and the memories because they will live in your heart forever.

Live your life doing want you want to do, what happened to your friend may never happen to you but if it it did, then it would be your time to go.

what a crock there are ways of looking at death this is one however you can add to this so why push the odds I'm not a re breather diver, it seems that every time i look at getting one something happens to a top re breather diver, if these people make mistakes after hundreds of dives sods law will dictate that you will make that mistake at one point.

i have friends that dive re breathers and i have tried this but if something goes wrong as my mate said "you have to work to stay alive" open circuit you just have to keep breathing.

as other people have said diving is a good sport if you jump in thinking all the bad thing of boggie men and failures it will happen enjoy the sport and if you personally feel comfortable on an open circuit then change but do if for you and not what others say,

years ago there were allot of climbing accidents people freezing and falling the philosophy of think pink was to relax you and concentrate on the climb the same should be for diving think about the dive plan it and then enjoy the experience. but don't go into the water thinking this is it, if thats the case reconsider what you do in your spare time, but whatever the decision do what makes you happy

im not voting on this as it's your choice

just my 2 pence worth

[VTR]

Originally Posted by DannyB

Am I the only CCR Diver who is debating giving it up as I don't understand why so many people have died on them this year?

I have been concerned for a while, there seems to have been a lot of CCR deaths this year, yesterday (Sunday) I lost a friend. I am seriously wondering if we've all missed something and they really are gonna kill us...

What are your thoughts?

Danny.

Firstly, sorry to hear of the loss of your friend.
To answer your question, the recent deaths on CCR have not made me think about giving up diving the unit at all. As far as I can tell the fatalities so far have been down to user error, or human/medical problems;- I understand that heart attack was the suspected cause of 1 if not 2 of the deaths & not turning the unit on at all was apparently another.
I'm well aware that I could be wrong in this & this is just my opinion & how I feel about diving CCR.

Cheers

Giles

[smudger]

Originally Posted by milldog

what a crock there are ways of looking at death this is one however you can add to this so why push the odds I'm not a re breather diver, it seems that every time i look at getting one something happens to a top re breather diver, if these people make mistakes after hundreds of dives sods law will dictate that you will make that mistake at one point.

i have friends that dive re breathers and i have tried this but if something goes wrong as my mate said "you have to work to stay alive" open circuit you just have to keep breathing.

as other people have said diving is a good sport if you jump in thinking all the bad thing of boggie men and failures it will happen enjoy the sport and if you personally feel comfortable on an open circuit then change but do if for you and not what others say,

years ago there were allot of climbing accidents people freezing and falling the philosophy of think pink was to relax you and concentrate on the climb the same should be for diving think about the dive plan it and then enjoy the experience. but don't go into the water thinking this is it, if thats the case reconsider what you do in your spare time, but whatever the decision do what makes you happy

im not voting on this as it's your choice

just my 2 pence worth

Firstly if you really think when something goes wrong on open circuit you just have to keep breathing then you are wrong. With limited gas supply you can breath right up to the time you have no gas left which doesn't have to mean your on the surface. Then there could be other issues a split mouth piece you can get salt water aspiration syndrome the more you breathe the worse it will get and you may not know its happening till its too late. Diving can be a dangerous sport!
Rebreather deaths are pretty high profile at the moment as it is a fairly new compared to open circuit.