When is the right time to go CCR???

[TVR]

I have toyed with the idea of a CCR for some time. As a bit of background, I have been diving for 7 years, got 250+ dives, a mixture of UK and overseas, and get in the water at least once a month, if not more often, plus have the opportunity of pool sessions every week.

There have been two main barriers to date that have stopped me from getting a rebreather:

1. Money - hopefully a new job is about to remove that!

2. Intimidation and snobbery

Now, intimidation/snobbery takes a couple of forms:

Firstly, CCR sounds scary - I mean, people die using these things! That doesn't sound like a hobby! OK - this is scaremongering - but I have to sell this to my wife and young family. I have done a lot of reading around this and done a lot of dives with rebreather users (albeit all Inspiration users). I am comfortable with the risks - at the end of the day, it is a piece of equipment - you need to use it correctly and give it respect, but otherwise this is not too drastically different to OC - the position remains that you cannot live underwater without some form of artificial breathing system.

Secondly, there is the snobbery thing. I have read a lot of posts from would-be RB divers. The responses seem to be one of two camps:

1. Soon everyone will dive RBs, so why not just start out this way and skip the twinset. This attitude seems to indicate an acceptance that provided you do the courses and understand what the RB is telling you (or what you need to tell it), then just get on with your diving. Just because you are not doing 80m plus expedition dives, does not mean that a RB is not a reasonable choice.

2. RBs are the preserve of the serious deep tech diver, so if you are not on trimix and diving 60m plus every week, then a RB is just a status symbol/toy and you are a twat if you dive one ("all the gear, no idea"). This is the attitude that has so far put me off - I would like to dive a CCR as I see it as benefiting my diving, but just because I am not doing mix dives every week, I don't want to get on a boat and be considered a flash twat just because I have a RB.

I will put my hands up - I currently dive to around 45m max, and keep my deco to as little as possible - although if there is something I particularly want to see, I'll extend that deco up to around 40 mins.

I am well aware that I can do these dives with my current twinset and a stage.

However, the way I look at it is why make things more difficult/uncomfortable - if I can do these dives with a RB, making the deco more efficient (even if I keep the run time similar for safety's sake) and I take the concerns over gas consumption away (albeit that my SAC is generally less than 10lpm), then why is this looked on as being an unacceptable reason for diving a RB?

Just because I am not (yet) diving mix, why does this make diving a RB unacceptable?

Maybe I am just paranoid, and theze concerns only really exist on t'net - but as an outsider looking into the world of RBs, it is a really daunting move.

btw - I am not looking for suggestions as to what RB to go for - I have decided that I will be arranging a comparison between an Inspo and a KISS (my heart says KISS at the moment!).

In summary, the reason for my post is that I would like to get a CCR, I would like to dive it and get the maximum benefit from it for the diving that I do, but I do not have any experience with RBs - I would like some advice from those that use them (rather than general comments as to whether they are going to kill me etc etc) as to whether there are significant matters that I have not addressed, or if I am just getting hooked up on internet stuff that doesn't really exist in the real world!

Thanks for reading this if you have managed to get this far!!!!

[Okeanos]

I am a newly qualified CCR diver and as such I can only dive to 40m for the next 100 dives. Everyone has to go through this (unless you are trimix qualified some agencies allow 50 dives).

The biggest gains I have found so far are on the shallower dives. On OC if I were to dive to 20m I would use air, or EAN30 (usually in my twins). Using the RB I have so much time down there before I get near to deco I have to remember the others on the boat. Multi level dives are the same, if you start at 40m you end up in deco just as quick as if you were on the optimum nitrox mix, but the deco disappears really quickly as you ascend. Square profile dives with stage cylinders won't be very different for deco, except for the cost of the fills. After a 1hr dive I have used 90p of O2 and have my air dil topped up (FOC usually), whereas I might have had £20 worth of nitrox between all my cylinders.

Snobbery - who cares, I use one and still slag off RB users

Scary - treat it with respect and don't ever cut corners and you'll be fine

My SAC is as low as 8.5, yet I couldn't get 3 hours (scrubber duration) out of 2x3L cylinders, at any depth. If you do the Tmx ticket you can run Tmx for most dives as a 3L will cost so little it'll make it pointless doing 40m on air dil.

My usually group of divers are all OC, they are now seriously considering CCR after seeing it used by me. Their previous experience were of people fettling for the whole boat trip to the dive site, then still not being ready, all my fettling is done at home. The pre-dive sequence lasts 5 minutes, I get in with the OC users and come out way after them

[Mick F]

Originally Posted by Okeanos

The pre-dive sequence lasts 5 minutes, I get in with the OC users and come out way after them

Yep. We get in before the OC crowd & get out long after.

I'm in the same boat (no pun intended) limited to 40M for the time being. I usually get cold before I have to worry about deco/runtimes.

If you have decided that cc is the way to go, then go for it. It brings massive advantages as well as some real disadvantages. I use video - critters let me get much closer now, but it's a real pain in the arse when a cell fails on the rib as you pre-breathe. Mind you, the only dive I've actually missed this year has been down to a valve failure on my OC bailout!

As usual, all internet advice is worth exactly what you pay for it.

[NeilP]

Originally Posted by Okeanos

My usually group of divers are all OC, they are now seriously considering CCR after seeing it used by me.

I don't think that's the reason Mark!

TVR, I was thinking of going down the route next winter, but I might be doing it soon - I know of a unit at the right price, the spec I want and I'm having a look at it before Christmas hopefully.

My reason is purely out of cost of gas for deeper dives - it should save me a fortune.

Snobbery? That's a crock of shite, whatever others will tell you, although some CCR divers like to think they are a cut above.

Scary? What can be scarier than running out of gas?

It's a tool for the job. If it works for you then go for it. If it doesn't then don't bother.

[Angleseyskipper]

Originally Posted by TVR

I have toyed with the idea of a CCR for some time. As a bit of background, I have been diving for 7 years, got 250+ dives, a mixture of UK and overseas, and get in the water at least once a month, if not more often, plus have the opportunity of pool sessions every week.

There have been two main barriers to date that have stopped me from getting a rebreather:

1. Money - hopefully a new job is about to remove that!

2. Intimidation and snobbery

Now, intimidation/snobbery takes a couple of forms:

Firstly, CCR sounds scary - I mean, people die using these things! That doesn't sound like a hobby! OK - this is scaremongering - but I have to sell this to my wife and young family. I have done a lot of reading around this and done a lot of dives with rebreather users (albeit all Inspiration users). I am comfortable with the risks - at the end of the day, it is a piece of equipment - you need to use it correctly and give it respect, but otherwise this is not too drastically different to OC - the position remains that you cannot live underwater without some form of artificial breathing system.

Secondly, there is the snobbery thing. I have read a lot of posts from would-be RB divers. The responses seem to be one of two camps:

1. Soon everyone will dive RBs, so why not just start out this way and skip the twinset. This attitude seems to indicate an acceptance that provided you do the courses and understand what the RB is telling you (or what you need to tell it), then just get on with your diving. Just because you are not doing 80m plus expedition dives, does not mean that a RB is not a reasonable choice.

2. RBs are the preserve of the serious deep tech diver, so if you are not on trimix and diving 60m plus every week, then a RB is just a status symbol/toy and you are a twat if you dive one ("all the gear, no idea"). This is the attitude that has so far put me off - I would like to dive a CCR as I see it as benefiting my diving, but just because I am not doing mix dives every week, I don't want to get on a boat and be considered a flash twat just because I have a RB.

I will put my hands up - I currently dive to around 45m max, and keep my deco to as little as possible - although if there is something I particularly want to see, I'll extend that deco up to around 40 mins.

I am well aware that I can do these dives with my current twinset and a stage.

However, the way I look at it is why make things more difficult/uncomfortable - if I can do these dives with a RB, making the deco more efficient (even if I keep the run time similar for safety's sake) and I take the concerns over gas consumption away (albeit that my SAC is generally less than 10lpm), then why is this looked on as being an unacceptable reason for diving a RB?

Just because I am not (yet) diving mix, why does this make diving a RB unacceptable?

Maybe I am just paranoid, and theze concerns only really exist on t'net - but as an outsider looking into the world of RBs, it is a really daunting move.

btw - I am not looking for suggestions as to what RB to go for - I have decided that I will be arranging a comparison between an Inspo and a KISS (my heart says KISS at the moment!).

In summary, the reason for my post is that I would like to get a CCR, I would like to dive it and get the maximum benefit from it for the diving that I do, but I do not have any experience with RBs - I would like some advice from those that use them (rather than general comments as to whether they are going to kill me etc etc) as to whether there are significant matters that I have not addressed, or if I am just getting hooked up on internet stuff that doesn't really exist in the real world!

Thanks for reading this if you have managed to get this far!!!!

250 dives in 7 years is not a lot and i would question if you do enough diving to warrant the expense and keep your hand in on which ever set you end up buying.
looking at the tone of your post i think you've answered your own question
elfyn

[Noel Johnson]

Hi there TVR, cool name by the way - after the Griffth by any chance?

Re CCR for limited deco and recreational depths,

One of my regular buddies has just recently qualified on a unit which has just been awarded a CE mark.

This is the submatix CCR, a manual KISS style box which is distinctly for the recreational market. It will go a lot deeper than the 45 metres you stipulate in the OP but so will open circuit. The training was done in Stoney on a 1 week residential course and she's loing every second.

Personally I have been looking into them for a while, since rebreathers fascinate me, but I find that the cost is prohibitive and personally I think I'm not doing enough dives to warrant one - work commitments have meant that I have done 35 dives this year which is a lot less than I would have liked and most of them have been quarries as I want to stay sharp as it were.

Give Leslie (member name: sexydivebuddy) or Andy (andyabyss) a shout if you want to know more.

Good luck with whatever you choose,

Noel.

[Mary]

Every one has thier own reasons for diving a CCR and you need to do the sums and some thinking to decide if it's for you.

As for the snobbery thing, RB divers are a funny lot. I've had snippy comments off people with fewer hours but bigger egos as they don't see the diving I do as important enough, and the fact that my inspo it still pretty much at AP spec. I've also had very unpleasant comments off OC intstructors infront of thier OW students which I thought was just plain ignorant and unprofessional.

[Janos]

Originally Posted by Mary

Every one has thier own reasons for diving a CCR and you need to do the sums and some thinking to decide if it's for you.

As for the snobbery thing, RB divers are a funny lot. I've had snippy comments off people with fewer hours but bigger egos as they don't see the diving I do as important enough, and the fact that my inspo it still pretty much at AP spec. I've also had very unpleasant comments off OC intstructors infront of thier OW students which I thought was just plain ignorant and unprofessional.

There's loads of good thing about RBs. For me, it's time at depth, warm gas, time at depth, use trimix on every dive, time at depth, no need to get fills, time at depth, and time at depth.

The snobbery thing is only natural. It costs a lot of money, and you are trusting your life to the thing. [1]. That's a BIG commitment and so, especially amongst newbie rebreather divers (1 unit, <100 hours) people treat them in a funny way.

There's a Phd in there somewhere.

Janos

[1] - Actually trust is the wrong word. You are keeping a suspicious eye on it while it keeps you alive

[Depth-junkie]

Posted by TVR: Firstly, CCR sounds scary - I mean, people die using these things! That doesn't sound like a hobby! OK - this is scaremongering - but I have to sell this to my wife and young family. I have done a lot of reading around this and done a lot of dives with rebreather users (albeit all Inspiration users). I am comfortable with the risks - at the end of the day, it is a piece of equipment - you need to use it correctly and give it respect, but otherwise this is not too drastically different to OC - the position remains that you cannot live underwater without some form of artificial breathing system

They are like any piece of equipment, use it porperly and you wont go far wrong.

Posted by Okeonas: My usually group of divers are all OC, they are now seriously considering CCR after seeing it used by me. Their previous experience were of people fettling for the whole boat trip to the dive site, then still not being ready, all my fettling is done at home. The pre-dive sequence lasts 5 minutes, I get in with the OC users and come out way after them

Bang on, you dont need to fettle much, everyone i have seen messing about with there units all the time are the ones that have problems. Set it up the night before (takes about 15-20min) Then on the dive day on the boat, pressure test it again Poss/neg (i tend to do a poss test on the dock side then put it on neg and leave it closed on the trip out to the dive site untill i am ready to calibrate), switch it on and calibrate it and go diving. No reason to be messing about fettling all the time.

Posted by TVR: RBs are the preserve of the serious deep tech diver, so if you are not on trimix and diving 60m plus every week, then a RB is just a status symbol/toy and you are a twat if you dive one ("all the gear, no idea"). This is the attitude that has so far put me off - I would like to dive a CCR as I see it as benefiting my diving, but just because I am not doing mix dives every week, I don't want to get on a boat and be considered a flash twat just because I have a RB.

Not excatly true, it's just most of us justify our purchases through our trimix diving, as if you opperate in the 60m+ range regulary the unit soon starts to pay for itself and ease of gas logistics plays a big part also. I can go away for a weekends diving from 60-80m and dont have to worry about getting fill's, I get back in from the dive and empty the lime out, put a fresh fill in and let the head dry out. Next morning put the head back on and go diving again.

But you dont have to dive trimix to justify a unit, if you can afford it and want one get one. It really is as simple as that.

even for shallow reef dives the CCR beats OC hands down IMHO, I enjoyed nothig better in the red sea than some fab solo reef dives in the 25m region on my unit. No noise, no bubbles great intercation with marine critters. And most importantly peace and quite. You cant justify the cost of the unit for dives like this, but who cares if you can affoard it go for it. I find diving the unit a much better experiance than OC for all dives regardless if deep or shallow.

Posted by TVR: I will put my hands up - I currently dive to around 45m max, and keep my deco to as little as possible - although if there is something I particularly want to see, I'll extend that deco up to around 40mins.

One of my best dives on the unit was at 38-45m. Solo dive on the Rosalie Moller, all the OC divers in our group had a max of around 20min BT as they were all on single 12's. On the unit i did a 45min BT with only 20mins of deco to do. Had the whole wreck to myself for at least 20min before the OC divers arrived on the wreck and then for about 10mins at the end when they had all started to make their ascent's.

If i was to have done that dive OC i would have had to have a RT of around 119mins even when using a stage of 50%. If diving it on NX 25% as the OC guys did, you would end up with a dive of about 184mins...just not doable. Compared to my 65mins i know which profile i would like
Did that dive justify my outlay on the unit, in my mind hell yeah. having the whole wreck to myslef and having the piece and tranquilety that went with it was simply fantastic.

Posted by Mary: As for the snobbery thing, RB divers are a funny lot. I've had snippy comments off people with fewer hours but bigger egos as they don't see the diving I do as important enough, and the fact that my inspo it still pretty much at AP spec. I've also had very unpleasant comments off OC intstructors infront of thier OW students which I thought was just plain ignorant and unprofessional.

I am with you on this one, i just cant see why people have to modify something that works, again i think they can all spout their reasons. But the truth lies in that they want to be seen as different (ego's).
I know a few lads who have pulled off dives bigger than i and most can ever dream off. And were all using pretty standard inspo's.

So the answer to your question (when is the right time to go CCR?) IMHO is as soon as you can afford one and most of all want one!!! Cheaper trimix diving is a bonus, but not the only reason to go CCR
ATB
Gareth

[Tony Jay]

Originally Posted by Depth-junkie

One of my best dives on the unit was at 38-45m. Solo dive on the Rosalie Moller, all the OC divers in our group had a max of around 20min BT as they were all on single 12's. On the unit i did a 45min BT with only 20mins of deco to do. Had the whole wreck to myself for at least 20min before the OC divers arrived on the wreck and then for about 10mins at the end when they had all started to make their ascent's.

If i was to have done that dive OC i would have had to have a RT of around 119mins even when using a stage of 50%. If diving it on NX 25% as the OC guys did, you would end up with a dive of about 184mins...just not doable. Compared to my 65mins i know which profile i would like

I am a rebreather Fan, but I do not do enough diving to justify one to myself.

I do however disagree with your deco calcs !(I'm using Jplan)

Using the same algorithm (only way to compare CC vs OC ?) (lets say GF 30/85)

A profile of
45m 7 mins
38m 38 mins

CC (air dil)= RT 70 (69 with 6m o2 flush)mins
OC (air) = RT 123
OC (25%) = RT 105
OC ( air 50%stage)= RT 89
OC(25% and 50% stage)=RT 83

So the best OC mix (25 and 50%) gives you 13 mins more deco.

In the red sea I would probably do this on air and 50% stage, and do

45m 7 mins
38 30 mins giving a RT of 69 minutes

(i grab an air topped off 32 from a previous dive ;-)

In reality, this would probably be mixed twin and then limit myself on air requirements as A twin + a stage for this dive is a bit overkill compare to the rewards.

I assume a CCR diver would be on at least stage for bailout on this ?

For me An extra 7 minutes is not worth the hassle of CCR (I would not even be bothered to get the bottom gas nitrox for the extra expense vs a couple of minutes on the bottom)

Using the same arguments, I know CCR users draw different answers. (i.e. if you own a CCR it makes sense to dive it all the time, and then get the most out of it)

I would also be limited by my buddy - I would not do this sort of dive solo. I'd rather share a dive for 20 minutes than solo for 40, but thats just me !

I may have cocked up the calculations of course....

Tony

ps I do know what is like to have a red sea wreck to myself, Me and my buddy were the only 2 on a night dive on the thistlegorm one Xmas eve. We dived by moonlight most of the time with torches off - until I bumped into a sleeping turtle.