New article about DIRrebreather

[gobfish1]

Mark

As you know I have only been diving CCR for a year now ,
And all I want to say is each time I have been diving with Ccr lads
I have noticed that they all dive much the same way as myself ,
The kit is the same , there bail out gas is the same ish
The one thing that was different was bottom times
Some wanted more time some wanted less ,
Most of that came down to how much deco they were prepared to do ,
Some only wanting 2h in water and some wanting 3h

My trip to malin last year was my first big trip out on the box, I was a bit
Concerned that I would not be as good as some of the other lads on
The boat. And that my way of diving would not match in with them ,
But when I jumped in for the first dive all my worry s went away ,
All of them to a man , seem to dive there box much the same as myself,
Half of the divers on the boat that week have been diving on CCR for a long time
Some of the first units sold by AP were on the boat that week , lads that dive 90m+ often

Maybe I’m just lucky , as I have never had a problem underwater with my kit or with a dive buddy that was not simple to sort out with the right plan in place ,
I think having a set of standards is all well and good, The main problem
With that is, most CCR divers want to do there thing,
And don’t want some one saying you must do it this way or not at all ,
Ccr diving is not about following , its about doing,

Most of us Enjoy the risk , / and challenge of over coming the risk , We always enjoy being different and not in compliance, to some degree , even when I was diving oc I never complied with BSAC recommendations so y should I start to do it now ,

There is information in abundances on safe ways to dive take from it what you want
And leave what you don’t want, and please let others do the same ,

You have decided on the path that you want to take and I wish you well ,
But its not the path most ccr divers will be walking IMO



I can appreciate you wanting to improve your diving, wanting to be as good as the dir lads
You some times dive with , all I can say is if you want to be dir sell your box and get a big twin set or two , do the course, limit your bottom times and your in water deco, only dive with the dir divers that you trust when you plan to dive deeper than 30m
Some one said there is maybe 50 dir divers in uk that can dive to 70m+
don’t know if that number is true , I would think it’s less than that ,
You will have maybe 50 buddy s that will want to do the same diving as yourself.
That’s if they will dive with you,
Remember
DIR have the ability to weed out the crap divers from the program
They may send you on your way with the reject chip shoved up your arse

If there is a demand for Dirrebreather it will happen , i.e. money to be made ,
But I don’t think there is a demand,
.
The norm in the uk for deep diving ,70m+ would be to dive with a team of lads that you know can do the diving that you want to be involved with ,
this take s time, you cant by that , sorry M8

Hope you get a good diver as a buddy soon and get in with a dive team you can trust , other than that you may just have to lower your standards so you can then dive with us Muppets
Steve G

[RichardGreen]

Originally Posted by gobfish1

Mark

As you know I have only been diving CCR for a year now ,
And all I want to say is each time I have been diving with Ccr lads
I have noticed that they all dive much the same way as myself ,
The kit is the same , there bail out gas is the same ish
The one thing that was different was bottom times
Some wanted more time some wanted less ,
Most of that came down to how much deco they were prepared to do ,
Some only wanting 2h in water and some wanting 3h

My trip to malin last year was my first big trip out on the box, I was a bit
Concerned that I would not be as good as some of the other lads on
The boat. And that my way of diving would not match in with them ,
But when I jumped in for the first dive all my worry s went away ,
All of them to a man , seem to dive there box much the same as myself,
Half of the divers on the boat that week have been diving on CCR for a long time
Some of the first units sold by AP were on the boat that week , lads that dive 90m+ often

Maybe I’m just lucky , as I have never had a problem underwater with my kit or with a dive buddy that was not simple to sort out with the right plan in place ,
I think having a set of standards is all well and good, The main problem
With that is, most CCR divers want to do there thing,
And don’t want some one saying you must do it this way or not at all ,
Ccr diving is not about following , its about doing,

Most of us Enjoy the risk , / and challenge of over coming the risk , We always enjoy being different and not in compliance, to some degree , even when I was diving oc I never complied with BSAC recommendations so y should I start to do it now ,

There is information in abundances on safe ways to dive take from it what you want
And leave what you don’t want, and please let others do the same ,

You have decided on the path that you want to take and I wish you well ,
But its not the path most ccr divers will be walking IMO



I can appreciate you wanting to improve your diving, wanting to be as good as the dir lads
You some times dive with , all I can say is if you want to be dir sell your box and get a big twin set or two , do the course, limit your bottom times and your in water deco, only dive with the dir divers that you trust when you plan to dive deeper than 30m
Some one said there is maybe 50 dir divers in uk that can dive to 70m+
don’t know if that number is true , I would think it’s less than that ,
You will have maybe 50 buddy s that will want to do the same diving as yourself.
That’s if they will dive with you,
Remember
DIR have the ability to weed out the crap divers from the program
They may send you on your way with the reject chip shoved up your arse

If there is a demand for Dirrebreather it will happen , i.e. money to be made ,
But I don’t think there is a demand,
.
The norm in the uk for deep diving ,70m+ would be to dive with a team of lads that you know can do the diving that you want to be involved with ,
this take s time, you cant by that , sorry M8

Hope you get a good diver as a buddy soon and get in with a dive team you can trust , other than that you may just have to lower your standards so you can then dive with us Muppets
Steve G

Well put over Steve


Richard

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by RichardGreen

Mark, it would be nice if you would refer to my name here if your post refers to me? I pressume, however.




Cheers


Richard

Richard i would cut and past you but all I get is the above because you put it all in quotes.

Sorry no offence ment.

ATB

Mark Chase

[RichardGreen]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

Richard i would cut and past you but all I get is the above because you put it all in quotes.

Sorry no offence ment.

ATB

Mark Chase

Mark


None taken & thanks for the debate, which is about diving & which YD is about? and not some of the other useless chit chat that gets posted.


Regards


Richard

[Mark Chase]

[quote]

Originally Posted by NotDeadYet

But if I have a qualification that suits then you will dive with me regardless of knowing anything about me? Mark, you've posted some stuff over the years but if you don't mind me saying, that's the daftest standpoint I've ever heard at this level of diving.

No, I must have posted a lot dafter than this surely


Yes, if you were DIR Tech2 trained active diver I'd do a 70m OC dive with you on faith.

I will know exactly how your going to do the dive and how your gas planning and deco works and I know exactly what to expect in terms of buddy support. The system is pretty simple and very strict.

I know this because there are only a handful of DIR instructors in the UK and they are all doing tough training courses at Tech1 Tech2 level. I also know this because the diver has CHOSEN to be a GUE DIR diver. This suggests he prefers to dive in a systematic and disciplined fashion. Whats the point of going GUE unless your going to follow the standards.


Is someone tells me they are TDI advanced Trimix I have no idea how they will approach the dive. Last time i dived with two superb divers on a 70m wreck. Both of them could dive circles around me but the dive ended with one solo and me thinking the other one was dead. Back on the boat they laughed at my concern and assured me they always dived like that.

Another time The diver who was supposed to be reeling off showed me his jammed reel. So i deployed my reel and tied off. When i looked up from this task the others had gone. Apparently he was indicating to me his reel was jammed and as he knew the wreck he wasn't going to bother reeling off. I couldn't understand him so I ended up at 72m solo.

These are good divers, highly skilled in the water, but just mentally working on a different wave length to me.

Nope, my dil is plumbed into my BOV. How do you know your offboard is functioning/hasn't rolled off? How do you know you haven't plumbed in the wrong gas (you say you have tails on all your gases)? Do you have your buddy visually verify as with DIR stage management? I have my dil plumbed in, I know it is functioning because it's driving the RB, I know it's safe at depth because it's driving the RB.

I have never rolled off a stage but if I did id just turn it on again. Plumbing the BOV into a 3ltr with maybe 150bar in it on a 70m dive is useless. With a C02 hit and a SAC of 40 id empty the 3ltr in just over 1min and in the process loosing wing inflation.

I would have lost the benefit of having a BOV as I have to revert to an OC bailout.


I have two tins for bailout one is breathable at max depth and the other is breathable at 21m and above. Max depth tin is plumbed in to the bov. 50% tin has a whip so i can run the ccr on 50% or i can use it SCR. The max depth gas can be used SCR via the bov.

If I add a third tin it will be max depth lower than 18/45 Then it will be on the BOV and my deep whip is on the left and my rich whip is on the right. Pretty hard to plug it in the wrong side as the deep dill button is on the left and the rich is on the right.

Hard to screw up the tanks too due to size and markings

I don't have a HUD. I have three independant handsets. I still do not understand the obsession with a HUD. I'd like a reliable independant secondary but why a HUD? Things happen slow. I know, what if my arm is wrapped in monofilament... I'm starting to wear a helmet in case a defunct satellite lands on me too.

Always know your PP02.

With a HUD you always do. Without one you only occasionally know your PP02Its as simple as that.


But your arguing over standards I put up as an example not DIRebreather standards theres could be different.

Do you carry adequate OC bailout or do you rely on SCR? Why add the complication of SCR if you have adequate bailout?

I carry bailout deep at 2.5X sac and shallow at 1.5X sac. Some of the dives i do i have enough gas for a get out alive but most likely bent. Running 30/100 or even 100/100GF profiles. On those occasions if i still had the option of SCR i would use it. If not, its alive but it might hurt a bit.

I thought you used a VR£? I use tables that are quite conservative. If you want to follow them then fine, I'm not cutting it shorter than that though. I go by whoever's planned deco is the more conservative. I won't get in the water without knowing at what time we are turning for home.

No I use a Shearwater and a Hammer Head so I can run 10/100 or 100/100 profiles if i like. I prefer to run 20/85GF

I only expect my buddy to know 4, stop, OK, not OK, go home. Anything else I either point if obvious or use a slate. If someone is American type cave trained then I'll expect they'll know the NSS-CDS signals. Light signals are either OK or flash or no response (equal to flash). I don't expect to match hose fittings because I've planned my bailout not to be reliant on QC's. The KISS doesn't have the dependance on QC's that the Inspiration has (i.e. none as standard) so does that mean you won't dive with a KISS diver?

I don't have inspiration fittings on my unit. If you ran out of dill I could give you some if you had a standard hose connector on your diluent side. Same for 02. If you don't i cant help.

And that's my point. Who is to say what you are doing is right? It works but then so does how I dive. I'm not arguing for/against anything. If it works then it works. You like using gadgetry to overcome basic failures, I like the simplicity/run away strategy. Who is right? Maybe both, maybe neither.

If the new standards said to be DIRebreather you have to all dive a KISS Id sell my unit and get a KISS. Compromise is necessary for the greater good of the standard. Which is why i put up with a totally crap one piece harness when i dive with DIR divers.

Basic principles are great but not worth a thing if whoever is running the RB ignores them. I'd rather dive with someone I know won't ignore a few basic procedures.

I still think it is a moneymaking scheme, but I'm a cynic.

Cheers,

Whats the point in paying out to join and attend courses to be a DIRebreather diver and then ignoring the standards? i don't see many GUE DIR divers doing it and i wouldn't expect it of DIRebreather divers either.
They will relish the standards and strive to conform to them. They will be that sort of person. Personally i struggle with this a bit but i can see the benefit and would just rebel in a small way with a pink dry suit or something

ATB

Mark Chase

[Mark Chase]

[quote]

Originally Posted by gobfish1

Mark

As you know I have only been diving CCR for a year now ,
And all I want to say is each time I have been diving with Ccr lads
I have noticed that they all dive much the same way as myself ,
The kit is the same , there bail out gas is the same ish

Great, so you appreciate what i am aiming for then. You could see the benefit in this. It was obvious to you even with your short exposure to the world of CCR.

The one thing that was different was bottom times
Some wanted more time some wanted less ,
Most of that came down to how much deco they were prepared to do ,
Some only wanting 2h in water and some wanting 3h

As long as the buddy pair or three agreed on the same run I don't see an issue here.

My trip to Malian last year was my first big trip out on the box, I was a bit Concerned that I would not be as good as some of the other lads on The boat. And that my way of diving would not match in with them ,
But when I jumped in for the first dive all my worry s went away ,
All of them to a man , seem to dive there box much the same as myself,
Half of the divers on the boat that week have been diving on CCR for a long time. Some of the first units sold by AP were on the boat that week , lads that dive 90m+ often

Maybe I’m just lucky , as I have never had a problem underwater with my kit or with a dive buddy that was not simple to sort out with the right plan in place, I think having a set of standards is all well and good, The main problem with that is, most CCR divers want to do there thing,
And don’t want some one saying you must do it this way or not at all ,
Ccr diving is not about following , its about doing,

So the experienced divers have worked out a slick and efficient way of diving their units and you see the benefit in this and you appreciate their skill. You were relieved to find they all dived their CCR in a similar way to you. You felt this was a good thing?

Would you have felt more confident before the trip had you known exactly how they would dive how they would configure their rigs and what they would expect from you?

It seems to me you were deeply concerned at first and then greatly relieved that it turns out they were well sorted disciplined and dived just like you. I go through this same emotional rolercoster before every dive with a new dive buddy. I don't like it.

Most of us Enjoy the risk , / and challenge of over coming the risk , We always enjoy being different and not in compliance, to some degree , even when I was diving oc I never complied with BSAC recommendations so y should I start to do it now ,

There is information in abundances on safe ways to dive take from it what you want and leave what you don’t want, and please let others do the same,

I see no problem with this approach but if we were to dive together on a big dive we would have to do a few build up dives to find out about each other and how we dived. We would have to agree some procedures in advance and work out a few bugs. Then we would be fine.

Alternatively we could both dive exactly the same way in the first place and avoid all this preamble.

You have decided on the path that you want to take and I wish you well , But its not the path most ccr divers will be walking IMO

I haven't decided anything yet but i know that I don't like doing big dives with out my regular dive buddies. Having lost Andyp as a buddy i am left in limbo. I find I only sign on to dives now If I know who i am diving with. I have one buddy I do the big dives with who I have just started building up a rapore with and two others who are in the 60-70m max range.

By chance they are all interested in some sort of DIRebrether idea. In the group we have one classic with Sherewater HUD one KISS with Sherewater HUD me with a Hammer Head and one KISS with a Uri HUD. We have two VR3users and two Sherewater users for deco.

As far as forming standards goes we haven't found a problem with this yet. With Howard having placed his order for a BOV we are all now on BOVs. Two Golum one KISS and a Divematic.

I can appreciate you wanting to improve your diving, wanting to be as good as the dir lads. You some times dive with , all I can say is if you want to be dir sell your box and get a big twin set or two , do the course, limit your bottom times and your in water deco, only dive with the dir divers that you trust when you plan to dive deeper than 30m

Some one said there is maybe 50 dir divers in uk that can dive to 70m+
don’t know if that number is true , I would think it’s less than that ,
You will have maybe 50 buddy s that will want to do the same diving as yourself. That’s if they will dive with you,

I don't know what your talking about? I think diving below 50m on a regular basis on OC is insane and i have no intention of doing so. I think GUE are idiots for not embracing a decent CCR like the KISS and I think the RB80 is a cave only unit.

As good as DIR divers??????? At what exactly? Posing with my buttocks clenched and my fins up in the air? Thats all bollocks as far as i am concerned. I understand their need for super human buoyancy control when diving 2000m into a 6m deep cave with a silty bottom but frankly buoyancy control is a piece of piss at the depths i dive. The only time i see less than 20m deep is on deco.

No, I am not interested in OC DIR diving unless its shallow ie less than 50m deep preferably 30-40m. Then it makes a lot more sense to dive OC than it does CCR.


DIRebreather took the term DIR to start rucks and cause discussion and its worked a treat. The real point is a standards based diving system for CCR divers. You can call it what the hell you like but DIRebrether outlines the aims by reference to the present masters of standards, GUE.

Remember
DIR have the ability to weed out the crap divers from the program
They may send you on your way with the reject chip shoved up your arse

If there is a demand for Dirrebreather it will happen , i.e. money to be made,
But I don’t think there is a demand,

Maybe? maybe not? but i like it and I have never gone with the majority just because its the majority.

The norm in the uk for deep diving ,70m+ would be to dive with a team of lads that you know can do the diving that you want to be involved with , this take s time, you cant by that , sorry M8

Sadly finding a teem has been hard. i now have the teem and i dive all year with them but just as I joined I lost my regular buddy.

Finding divers who will commit to about 12 two or three day trips a year costing £65 -£75 a dive + travel accommodation and disposables is hard. Then add the fact all the dives are midweek and it gets reeeeeeely hard.

Oh and by the way, we dive marks so it might be a heap of rocks or a crap trawler when we have finished sailing out five hours in a force 4 to get there. On the other hand you could find a bell and discover a brand new wreck. We did both last year.

Replacements for Andyp have not been queuing up.

Hope you get a good diver as a buddy soon and get in with a dive team you can trust , other than that you may just have to lower your standards so you can then dive with us Muppet's
Steve G

That is worrying if you think I consider the divers i struggle to dive with "Muppet's". Some of the divers I have struggled to dive with are very very good divers. I include my instructor in this group. He dives Alpinist and I therefore would prefer not to dive with him.

get it?


But your right had Andyp carried on being my buddy i probably wouldn't be thinking like this right now.


ATB

Mark Chase

[Garf]

Most of us Enjoy the risk , / and challenge of over coming the risk

Is this a breather-diver thing? Personally, I'm for anything which absolutely minimise the risk, because I don't like taking risks. Any more.

[milldog]

Originally Posted by Garf

Is this a breather-diver thing? Personally, I'm for anything which absolutely minimise the risk, because I don't like taking risks. Any more.

Your just a big pussy cat with a mean smile

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Garf

Is this a breather-diver thing? Personally, I'm for anything which absolutely minimise the risk, because I don't like taking risks. Any more.

I dive CCR and I think like you. But then I have kids. The thaught of dieing and leaving them alone at such a young age is awful.

ATB

Mark Chase

[NotDeadYet]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

No, I must have posted a lot dafter than this surely

OK, yeah, you have

Yes, if you were DIR Tech2 trained active diver I'd do a 70m OC dive with you on faith.

As I said, each to their own. I wouldn't, I want a bit more of a reassurance. I'm a selfish twat, I look on my buddy as a self-propelling extra form of bailout for me. I want to know that bailout works. I want a buddy that looks on me in the same way.

I will know exactly how your going to do the dive and how your gas planning and deco works and I know exactly what to expect in terms of buddy support. The system is pretty simple and very strict.

I thought that was the pre-dive plan.

Whats the point of going GUE unless your going to follow the standards.

I could make a gratuitous crack but I won't

Back on the boat they laughed at my concern and assured me they always dived like that.

If they are doing that on every dive then it's standard practice to them and easy to work with. Who is to say their standard shouldn't be adopted? It seems to work.

I have never rolled off a stage but if I did id just turn it on again.

I have. How would you know if it is only feeding the BOV? The dil also feeds my ADV so chances are I would notice.

Plumbing the BOV into a 3ltr with maybe 150bar in it on a 70m dive is useless. With a C02 hit and a SAC of 40 id empty the 3ltr in just over 1min and in the process loosing wing inflation.

Are you confident you could switch your BOV off the loop? I'm not confident that a BOV is a useful tool in a CO2 hit at all.

Hard to screw up the tanks too due to size and markings

Then why does DIR procedure state buddy verification of any gas switch?

With a HUD you always do. Without one you only occasionally know your PP02Its as simple as that.

Comes down to frequency of checking and how frequently you need that sample. There is an attitude that low frequency of checking = experience/increased cock size. I like to check a lot, the display is on the same arm as my light and they are backlit.

I carry bailout deep at 2.5X sac and shallow at 1.5X sac. Some of the dives i do i have enough gas for a get out alive but most likely bent. Running 30/100 or even 100/100GF profiles. On those occasions if i still had the option of SCR i would use it. If not, its alive but it might hurt a bit.

That's where we differ. I don't want to bail out on to a procedure that is more stressful/risk of screwing up/demanding of more attention than the main system.

I don't have inspiration fittings on my unit. If you ran out of dill I could give you some if you had a standard hose connector on your diluent side. Same for 02. If you don't i cant help.

What happened to my deep bailout? Just out of interest, do you use a different connection on the O2?

If the new standards said to be DIRebreather you have to all dive a KISS Id sell my unit and get a KISS. Compromise is necessary for the greater good of the standard. Which is why i put up with a totally crap one piece harness when i dive with DIR divers.

Again, it comes down to whose standards are right. I love one piece harnesses and I'd never dive anything else. Would I sell my KISS to meet with someone else's idea of standardisation? Nope.

They will relish the standards and strive to conform to them. They will be that sort of person.

Gawwwwwd's Holy Trousers!!!! I take it back, my kit is for sale if there is going to be more senseofhumourectomy survivors in the world!!!

Cheers,

Stuart