What does the future hold for rebreathers?

[NotDeadYet]

Originally Posted by ray

Hi.
Looks like we are with another diving god, you are shouting very loud so you must be right.

I was responding to about half a dozen posts in one message, I don't think that constitutes shouting. I'm anything but a dive god, I'll happily admit I'm a cock.

[QUOTE}What you are saying is every instructor is iffy and not quite up to it[/quote]

?

Where did I say that? I'm saying that having a ticket only proves that you displayed the required skill/knowledge on a certain day to pass the course. Bit like a driving licence, passing the test says you met the criteria on that day to that examiner but most people who have car crashes have a licence.

As for instructors, yes I do think it is a very subjective area and is independant of agency. There are some very good instructors and those that are not so good in all areas of diving. I've been on one course where the instructor wasn't in the water on any of the dives.

Someone should be able to pick a name off a list of instructors and expect exactly the same level of quality. That isn't the situation. For example, I did one course in the US and it was the hardest thing I've ever done underwater. I buddied a friend on exactly the same course done with another instructor and they didn't cover half of what mine did (if they met the minimum requirements then they only just did).

Apologies to all the very good instructors, it is not my intention to tar with the same brush but there has been, in my experience, a great range in the standard of some courses.

please tell us who you recommend and save everybody the effort of finding one to your standard of teaching.

I think anyone who actively dives the units they certify on is a very good start.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Drmike]

Originally Posted by ianfirmin

I don't wake up in the morning and say to myself "I want to do that dive. Now; what's the best equipment to use?". What I say to myself is that I want to go diving on my RB".

Ah, I see. Well we are very different then as I do exactly what you dont

I enjoy exploring (wrecks, cave (wet and dry), mountain, ) I choose whatever tool will best facilitate that exploration. It would be impossible to explore wookey (to put it in terms you may be familiar with) with my Ouroborous, and conversely sidemount OC wouldnt be great in a deep cave like Sra Keow. I dont alow the tool to dictate the dive - for me its visa versa

The reason for diving (for me) is not to use the tools - they are just a means to an end. Sure theres things about RB diving I enjoy (silence, tech challenge, warm gas) but theres also things I much preffer about OC diving too (simplicity, reliability, ease, strip down weight)

Having said that I can understand where your coming from. I recently bought a Lotus exige and really enjoy racing it - I enjoy the experience of using the car rather than the purpose (getting from a-b or around the track)

I can't endorse your opinion that people should only use rb when the dive "permits" or "warrants it".

people are of course totally free to do what they want - god forbid I or anyone else dictates what we do!. But exercising personal choice doesnt mean we shouldnt be honest and objective about the consequences and risk associated with those choices. My posts here were just to give a balanced and objective view of the risks (of using an rb for shallow recreational dives) so the original poster can better decide for himself what he wants to do - not to tell him what to do. (more to tell him what I would do, what I think should be done - and why) - afterall he did ask

[Drmike]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

John the simple truth is Janos and I would be dead if we didnt carry bailout. Thats it, I rest my case, no further discussion required.

me too

[Drmike]

Originally Posted by nigelH

I really envy the people who do enough diving to be fingertip exact on multiple sets of gear.
I need to dive my rebreather on the shallow dives so I keep the familiarity up or the deeper dives will be bad news.

I think its fine if people who do the kind of diving that warrants an RB is using one for dives that dont in order to practice skills and keep sharp. Its the people who never intend to do the dives that warrant one that I question.

If as has been stated their motives is simply because they love diving a rebreather thats of course fine and thier choice - but that doesnt mean we cant/shouldnt discuss, with people like the original poster, objectively and honestly that there are increased risks in doing so

Anyway, as the seasickness king, the ability to gas up a rebreather and know it is ready for any dive I want to do is wonderful.

i feel the same way - which is why Im a little concerned that the Sentinel Ive just ordered, 5 min forced pre breathe (right before the dive) could be a bit of a pain.

[Drmike]

Originally Posted by ray

How refreshing, a CCR diver that doesn't have his head up his arse, in a pissing contest, huffing and puffing on the web, and sees it as what it is, a pleasure.

lol! pot meet kettle!

Or was this someone elses only contribution to this thread?

Originally Posted by ray

Looks like we are with another diving god, you are shouting very loud so you must be right.

How refreshing, a CCR diver that doesn't have his head up his arse, in a pissing contest, huffing and puffing on the web, and sees it as what it is, a pleasure.


Must have been lucky then, I trained with Andy Hayhurst Dales Divers. thats the only bench mark I have.

Wow thats a sweeping remark, didn't no you new everything that has happend in the world .

[Drmike]

Originally Posted by NotDeadYet

What I have noticed is that in shallow water, especially underground, I'm a lot happier on OC.

me too

Each to their own. My dive planning more and more has become "how can I avoid using a RB?".

lol me too...again


....fancy a shag?

[ianfirmin]

Originally Posted by Drmike

My posts here were just to give a balanced and objective view of the risks (of using an rb for shallow recreational dives)
so the OP can better decide for himself what he wants to do - not to tell him what to do. (more to tell him what I would do, what I think should be done - and why)

It IS appreciated too. As a muppet/newbie RB diver I've picked up a lot of things from here that I've then gone on to independently verify (or not) and to incorporate into my own personal experiments/training.

Adversarial argument (which we get a lot of on here) is a good tool to make people think about what they are saying and what other people are saying.

ATB to you all
Ian

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by ray

Wow thats a sweeping remark, didn't no you new everything that has happend in the world .

Not a particularly good retort.

If your going to enter a discussion and make a point I am sure you would not do so unless armed with at least some basis of fact even if its personal empirical data.

Mike reckons on 1 ccr death a month so if we take day one as ten years ago and say 120ccr deaths to 2008 then I am sure you can fine several to back up your claim that it's mainly self taught CCR divers that have died.


Personally I am hedging my bets and diving a self taught KISS. Statistically I am very safe I will do the KISS course as soon as time allows which will statisticaly halve my chances of survival

ATB

Mark

[NotDeadYet]

Originally Posted by Drmike

me too

lol me too...again


....fancy a shag?

Don't expect breakfast

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Drmike

limit the use of an rb to only those dives where the benefits of the rb outweigh the increased risks.

this is the GUE approach (to RBs) and I have to say I agree with it.


Use the right tool for the job.
If Im doing dives down to 50m Ill use increasingly OC, below this rbs, long and deep caves Im using twin rbs

*RBs are far less forgiving than OC of human errors seeing as death mechanism on rb is more insideous (on OC you know you have run out of gas and so can act, on rb, CO or O2 can kill with no pre warning at all.

There are two RB80 divers in the UK now. One is a GUE instructor. They are getting dived up on them so yesterday they did a wreck in 47-60m OW and one assumes they did a few shallow wrecks before this.

For GUE the RB80 is a tool for massive dives, but how do you stay sharp on such a device unless you dive it virtually all the time? How many genuine RB80level dives can a diver do in a year?

For me, I bought twin 7s for the shallow scallop dives and anything past 30m I am using my CCR. Last year I didn't use my 7s at all but i managed about a half dozen single tank dives. I don't find it a problem chucking on a single tank rig and going diving despite a lay off of a year.

However I did DIRF on twin 7s thinking id be still good enough to pass after 18months of not diving OC. It wasn't easy at all. Sure I could pull off a Saturday afternoon dive and live, but when pushed hard I hadn't got the skills to hand. I needed more practice.

On OC if you make a mistake its generally obvious. On ccr you can make a mistake and not realize till its too late. QED with my level of opportunity to dive I need to dive CCR pretty much all the time to stay on top of it.



ATB

Mark