Paid for diving?

[chrisch]

Originally Posted by moray

Seeing as we NEVER get paid for something like that, not even a beer, I haven't troubled to check the law...besides, in the Canaries, no one cares anyway.

Hey!! we care less than you do! na-na...

(As an aside the skipper on our dive boat does not serve Tea.. However a refreshing Rum and Coke hits the spot after a dive..)

Chris

Donde estan l'aqua?

[Lou]

I think that in 99% of these cases a commie diver would never be employed in any case, so the argument of taking work from them is a bit thin. Besides it is a slightly ridiculous argument as does bunging your neighbour a few quid to look after your kids for an evening count as denying a wage to registered childminders?

I would suggest that the size of the job and your relationship to those who require your service is the defining factor. A quick dip to retrieve something, where the loss has just occurred is different to a search a while later, that has been organised carefully and involves several of you. The latter would only be done for "mates", otherwise it does stray into real "employment".

A "bung" that is a discretionary gift by way of thanks doesn't count as payment to me.

On our recent trip to Plymouth our group had to free some massive tow rope from one of the charter boat's engines. We weren't paid, none was offered, but none expected either. If he had offered to bung us in for a thrid dive that day, for example, however the "law" wouldn't have stopped us!

Lou

[chrisch]

Originally Posted by Lou

Besides it is a slightly ridiculous argument as does bunging your neighbour a few quid to look after your kids for an evening count as denying a wage to registered childminders?

Lou

Probably not. You - of course - do have Employer's Liability Insurance as required by Law and your neighbour is, no doubt, declaring the income for tax purposes as required by Law.

Chris

[David Martin]

Originally Posted by Padowan

And by payment, that also includes payment in kind - ie, tank fills, entrance fees or a burger at lunch. In order to completely negate the need for HSE diving regs, you will actually end up out of pocket as you will be funding yourself entirely.

Payment is kind is prohibited, but the problem only starts when you recover more than your expenses. You're not expected to put yourself out of pocket to do someone a favour; but you can't make a profit, or get a free holiday etc.

Unless you're doing it so regularly that it's become your "job", many of these things above could quite legitimately be considered expenses.

You're allowed to reclaim your expenses, or get the person who's benefitting to pay them, such as:
Fuel to get to the site
Entry fees
Gas costs

Providing that it's one-off, you could also claim accommodation (eg trainees paying the instructors' accommodation on the annual training trip.)

I wouldn't accept any payment or payment in kind for services (such as instructing), but would and do receive repayment or waiver of (part of) the expenses incurred.

David

[David Martin]

Originally Posted by Nick Bown

As far as I remember there isn't actually much you need to keep the HSE happy other than a Diving At Work medical, and work plan saying who the supervisor an safety diver are. Is there anything else I'm missing?

Originally Posted by Andy the Commie 2

Yes,,,, You can only be a Supervisor, if your and HSE Diver and done the course.

A DIVING CONTRACTOR can only employ a DS , if they are a member of the ADC .

I think that there's still a difference between "Diving Contractors" and professional "recreational diving instructors". To the best of my knowledge, most of the later have never been on an HSE course, although they will have HSE medicals and comply with ACoPs.

(Although I'd guess that even something as small as payment for a watch retrieval would be the former)

David

[Andy the Coastie]

Originally Posted by Lou

I think that in 99% of these cases a commie diver would never be employed in any case, so the argument of taking work from them is a bit thin.

Lou

Oh really, your be surprised in the shite jobs i have performed in my logbook, or had the pleasure to be a dive supervisor of .

Originally Posted by Lou

A "bung" that is a discretionary gift by way of thanks doesn't count as payment to me.Lou

So, what do you class as payment , then ?

Originally Posted by Lou

On our recent trip to Plymouth our group had to free some massive tow rope from one of the charter boat's engines. We weren't paid, none was offered, but none expected either. If he had offered to bung us in for a thrid dive that day, for example, however the "law" wouldn't have stopped us! Lou

Until it went to court after one of you were hurt...... Then the BUNG of a third dive is a reward for services given , as in PAYMENT for the dive to free up a prop.
And when the HSE phone round 3 dive charter boats and asked " How much do you charge for a single dive ? ".... Then the average is taken into account, which is the TOTAL payment for a single dive.


What i think your saying Lou is , that a lot of commie divers will not turn out in a 4 man team to free a yottie's prop for £ 700 + VAT ...... when they could be doing something more intresting .



Andy

Dive charter skipper / commie diver

[jamesp]

My understanding was that work was for commercial gain, ie if money changes hands, it`s for commercial gain. Regardless of the ammount. I have heard the argument that if you can prove that the money changing hands only covers the basic expenses then the rules do not apply, but I think this could be confusion over tax rules.
On the other hand a fisherman asked for help clearing a rope from his prop and he passed a couple of lobbies over afterwards(some git nabbed mine), no request made they were offered. Another guy had lost his mooring in the Menai, he agreed to tow the club boat up for the club and two of us would do a search for the mooring before the rest of the club did their dives. We were stuck for a tow that weekend, so two of us had a boring dive, while the rest of the club had a day in the boat that was not scheduled. Probably this second example would fall foul of the rules.

[Janos]

Originally Posted by jamesp

he passed a couple of lobbies over afterwards

I hope that you would have sent off a percentage of the lobbie enclosed with your tax return!

On the subject of expenses, I've never claimed expenses as an instructor, as I enjoy the experience, and wouldn't do it if I didn't, but if I did I'd claim petrol at "MP rate" of 57p (or whatever it is) per mile Surely the HSE can't argue with that?

Laters,
Janos

[chrisch]

Originally Posted by Andy the Commie 2

Until it went to court after one of you were hurt......

Nail - hammer - head

Sadly this also applies to Lou's neighbour who trips over the cat and sues for six squillion pounds. The household insurance doesn't pay up, 1. because insurance companies are theiving worthless scum shitbags and 2. because the baby-sitter is an employee.

Let's be careful out there...

Chris

[David Martin]

Originally Posted by Andy the Commie 2

So, what do you class as payment , then ?

Money or payment in kind that:
1) is not to cover genuine out-of-pocket expenses, and
2) is in exchange for the services rendered.

Therefore payment for a gas fill would not count - (1)

(2) will depend on the circumstances in question.

A cup of coffe from a friend probably would not count (2). It is unlikely to be construed as in exchange for the services. However you'd have much more trouble persuading a court that a case of whisky received from someone you'd just met was a spontaneous and unrelated gift.

Disclaimer - I'm not a lawyer (yet) - so don't rely on the above.

David