V Planner with Z Plan for shallow deco

[Ammers]

I've heard of quite a few folks getting bent on V Planner on deep dives and I've been tired on it myself despite extending my shallow water deco and racking up my setpoint.  On a 15 min bottom time to 102 metres on Tuesday I used V Plan and when the tables told me to get out, the VR3 said I had missed 38 minutes of stops!!   Why is V Planner so quick, even with high gradient conservatism???  Is anyone using V Plan and then Z Plan for the shallow stops?  It seems that the shallow deco in V Plan needs to be at least doubled.  I plan to do a load of dives in the 100m+ region now while building up my bottom time to build up for a deep cave diving trip later in the year - but I need to get a feel for some better software - I don't want to fully commit to the VR3 yet as I have some doubts about the deep stops it generates.  Can anyone help?

[Jay]

Let me get this straight - you did a dive to 102m for 15 mins bottom time, exited the water 38 minutes short of stops (albeit according to the VR3), on tables that are notorious for bending divers, FEELING TIRED and you are questioning the VR3's algorithms?

Ever considered the fact the the V Plan tables bent you? I take it you DID get medical advice on this just to make sure?

[MATTBIN]

Not quite sure you have read Ammers right there. As I read it, I could be wrong, she said she has used it (V Planner) before and been tired even with extended stop times, but on this particular dive the VR3 showed 38 mins of stops extra. She didnt say she got out according to V Planner or the computer, so not sure which one she used.
Matt

(Edited by MATTBIN at 4:49 pm on Jan. 23, 2003)

[Mr T.]

I'd look into this Ammers, if I were you, before you do you're next dive to that depth - Saturday??

You've been in convo's before about how V-planner can get folk bent, regularly, and you still use it? Wouldn't it make sense to use a table that more closely matched your computer of choice - VR3??

Just asking around, Deco-Planner is a more safe table/package to use. Suggest you get a bag of it before the Copper Mines punt in Feb - 140 metres??. How's the knees and head? Still bent? Get thee to a pot young lady - 4 YD-er's bent in one week. Like Jay said, let's not set a trend eh??

Dive safely in future. And know your limits!!

(Edited by Bren Tierney at 5:47 pm on Jan. 23, 2003)

[Driftwood]

Last time I checked, even PADI said if you had two sources of deco information you always dive to the most conservative.

Maybe you should do the PADI Deep Diver Speciality? You might learn something!

PS Why did you ask me not to mention your 102m gig and then do your notorious self-publisist extravoganza?

PPS Gonna wind up the Dive-Oz crew with this one? I'm sure Simon Mitchell would be interested (you'd like him, 176m HMAS Centaur on a Carleton 15.5)

[Ammers]

Eh?  Aren't you all making a few assumptions here!


The VR3 is modified ProPlanner which is modified Buhlmann - it is EXTREMELY conservative.  VPlanner is quicker and employs different deep stop and bubble gradient theory.  

They are all different - radically different.  38 mins is a standard difference between VR3 generated tables and software generated.  I have bent the VR3 on nearly every deep dive because I have been using software which calls in different deep stops. The VR3 sulks if you miss the stops it tells you.

Diving to the most conservative is not an option at those run times or temperatures - the body will not offgas efficiently when it gets too cold.  That's where diving really becomes technical to me - working out a schedule which gets you out cleanly.  The VR3 algorithm is not something I fully trust yet.  It is extremely handy for a redundant 4th cell reading on the Inspiration which is it's primary use to me at the moment.

If you put a VR3 onto a high gradient it will show a massive difference between it's expected deco and that of a more normal schedule.  Really - if people are going to advise - please can it be people who have actually seen a VR3 and used one??!?!

Really I was hoping for someone who was a bit clued up to answer this one - not a load of responses assuming I am bent because of dramatic differences in algorithms!!  

Bren - I can assume you have spoken to Andy Hayhurst as I did mention my dive to him and mention that I had a slight niggle in my knee.  I've had that a few times when not diving and even at the gym! So to make an assumption that I'm bent is ridiculous.   I did call for advice just to be on the safe side and they told me that it was definitely not DCI.  I suggest you speak to people directly instead of hearing half baked stories from others - chinese whispers eh?  This coming from people who aren't even box divers - I ask you!

If you knew anything about Decoplanner you would know it is not designed for Closed Circuit use. Kindly get the critical concepts right before you try giving out deco advice!

To the 3 who have had bends - expect the same nonsense in the same ilk from loads of people.  That's because these people don't understand that deeper diving has very little guarantees with software - there can be all sorts of funny feelings after deep dives - they are not all DCI!!

140 coming up on DDPlanner.  "KNOW YOUR LIMITS" - HOW ABOUT OPEN YOUR LIMITS?? "REDEFINE YOUR LIMITS"

Right. Now I'll ask my question again - has anyone used VPlanner with Z Plan for shallow stops? Do they have some profiles they can send me please. I don't know why someone would assume I am "winding up" aussies - I am looking for profiles to take me deeper, not wind people up.  If anyone has profiles of 100m+ dives using any derivative of VPM, please send to me. Stef? Pete? Db8? Thanks.

(Edited by Ammers at 7:36 pm on Jan. 23, 2003)

[Jay]

My apologies for showing some modicum of concern. Feeling abnormally tired after such a deep dive combined with a 'niggle' in my knee would be sufficient for me to at least get it checked out. No doubt you'd see that as yet another failure in diving 'indoctrination' that applies to sheep like me and not to diving pioneers like you (to whom something as mundane as DCI could not possibly ever apply).

[Mr T.]

In your own words petal:

Originally Posted by Ammers

"Really - if people are going to advise - please can it be people who have actually seen a VR3 and used one??!?!"

Neither I nor anyone else needs to have used, seen or become romantically invloved with any diving computer - let alone a VR3 - to know that you're doing something wrong if as you state:

Originally Posted by Ammers

"I have bent the VR3 on nearly every deep dive...."

some skill that, eh Ammers. Notwithstanding:

Originally Posted by Ammers

The VR3 sulks if you miss the stops it tells you.

so why miss them?? Doh?? You then make a foray in with:

Originally Posted by Ammers

Really I was hoping for someone who was a bit clued up to answer this one - not a load of responses assuming I am bent because of dramatic differences in algorithms!!

You're more than a little aware, Ammers, that most of the folk on here (whilst wishing you well in all your diving endeavours) gave up listening to your wholesale bravado and latest 'Grandstanding' and 'bleeding edge' diver exploits a long time ago. The attitude is, if we're being honest, 'Oh, Ammers, what's she done this time?'

Originally Posted by Ammers

Bren - I can assume you have spoken to Andy Hayhurst as I did mention my dive to him and mention that I had a slight niggle in my knee.

Him along with most other divers you know 'publicising' [grandstanding] your latest self-promoting stunt.

Originally Posted by Ammers

I've had that a few times when not diving and even at the gym! So to make an assumption that I'm bent is ridiculous.

If you came here with concerns about your knee after a vigorous gym workout, then we'd not be inclined to suspect DCI, would we? I'm not aware of a single recorded case of 'gym-related DCI'! :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Ammers

I did call for advice just to be on the safe side and they told me that it was definitely not DCI. I suggest you speak to people directly instead of hearing half baked stories from others - chinese whispers eh?

This from someone who makes a practice of starting those same 'myths & legends' herself....about herself!? LOL. More front than Woolworth's window.

Originally Posted by Ammers

This coming from people who aren't even box divers - I ask you!

And this, (along with your hang-up about being "the only female doing these profiles.." yawn) is always your sad refrain when confronted by anyone questioning the sanity of your usual 'me-me-me' self-promotion! We don't need to be box divers to know a wannabe when we see one. Just coz others more capable and experienced than you aren't doing the profiles you chance with (usually because they know better, and it's got f*ck-all to with "pushing my personal boundaries...") doesn't make their comment any the less sage. The honest truth is that you simply don't want to hear it.

You come on here with grandstanding opuses, not caring about what answers people give as long as they are in praise of Ammers. We'd have thought you have learnt that we got bored of it long ago.

Originally Posted by Ammers

Instead of 'KNOW YOUR LIMITS' - HOW ABOUT 'OPEN YOUR LIMITS'?? and 'REDEFINE YOUR LIMITS'?

Ignoring that regardless of seeking to push your limits (which is closer to the truth), you have to a limit from which to start to 'open' or push. :rolleyes:

Have you asked the same question on the Inspiration user forum?? The DIS-UK board or any of the myriad other technical forums you might have addressed?? Did you ask AP for their input?? And what did they have to say about your little sojourn? I would have thought they were eminently more qualified to answer your questions - after all, you can't be the 1st person to have attempted (on similar kit) what you allege to have done this week in Dotty - rather than a forum of plain-stated "I dive for fun and not to push every limit I've ever read about" divers, as in YD's case.

I seem to be the only person that you did not phone before the alleged Dotty dive, as you conducted your usual general ring-around to all and sundry with your 'Don't tell anyone else this, but....' Behave yourself.

If you're being honest with yourself and us Ammers, you knew damned well that you had very little chance of getting anything like the answers you sought from YD. What is, at this time, ostensibly, a recreational diver forum (albeit with a growing techy section) looks on and just shakes its collective head at your antics. You were Grandstanding again.

I'm prepared to be proved wrong, but all we have to go on is your word that you did 102 metres in Dotty. OK, then can I ask if you're a certified Inspiration user yet?? If so, the course - as I understand it - only certs you to 40 metres!!! So what in f*ck are you doing at 102 metres??!

Are you gonna stump the bill for the pot when they either drag you out unconscious from some mine-shaft or deep whole or, God forbid, have to send an ROV in to collect your mortal remains?? I doubt it, so why put other people to the trouble?! 'Selfish' and/or 'arrogant' ring any bells, Ammers??

Sort your life out and please don't place posts (your much and oft-stated love of 'verbal hand-grenades') which are designed - you wish - to make folk think you're some form of dive-goddess. You'll find that you just become a figure a fun - no matter how serious you might like to take yourself.

And please don't insult our intelligence any more by trying that tired old line "People take too much of what's on the internet far too seriously" before braking out into your usual cackle. I would like to think your life is a serious and not a laughing matter - I only wish you did.

Dive safe.

[Andy Phillips]

Ammers,

Over the last three or four months I have done a lot of research into decompression theory, mainly for me which is based on open circuit use. Basically your in troublr with this one. The are no absolute tables for use with CCR, there simply is not enough data available for true calculations on constan PPO2 diving. Decon planner with it's modified Buhlmann is not really suitable because it makes certain assumptions which are incompatible with constant PPO2. If you hunt around the net you will find various people have tried modified bubble gradient programs which have resulted in safe dives, but, all as far as I can see are still operating on a certain amount of guess work.

If you are really interested in the research I've done e-mail me off this forum and I will send the papers as well as my own conclusions. You would have to work through this and lift out the info for CCR's, as I said I have done this for me so most of it is based on open circuit.

p.s. the O2 sensor tester is complete, tested and functioning. It has been handed off to a manufacturer and should become a product over the next year.

Andrew

[Driftwood]

Originally Posted by Quote

A new revised VPM model will be included in the next V-Planner version (3.00). The revised VPM model, designated VPM-B, makes further adjustments for Boyles Law considerations. The new profiles start at the same depths, but now have a longer shallow section. The last few stops are now closer to the traditional decompression profiles.

V-Planner will include the VPM-B model, and I should have a beta version within the week.

Regards
--
Ross Hemingway

Ooops! Unfortunately, your stops were not long enough after all!