| | |||||||
|
Welcome to the YD Scuba forums. You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today! If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact support. |
| Decompression Diving: Discuss Decompression and Air: Why we should keep them apart in the Technical and Specialist Diving Forums forums: Hi Well we have a deco forum so I may as well use it. It seems all the rage. Firstly, ... |
| | LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
| ||||
| Diving and Air: Why we should keep them apart Hi Well we have a deco forum so I may as well use it. It seems all the rage. Firstly, an intro into what happens when we go underwater. As you know air is made up of 20.9% or .209 Oxygen and 79.1% or .791 nitrogen there or thereabouts. As we go deeper these numbers or partial pressures increase. So at 10 mtrs or 2 bar its .418 and 1.582 (we show these as Po2 and PN2) as it is multiplied by 2. Travelling to 30 mtrs we multiply by 4 bar which is .836 Po2 and 3.16 pN2, you can see how the nitrogen part is growing quite quickly. The oxygen part we don't really worry about as it is a metaboliser (we do but its not relevant today) and our body uses it in other ways, but the inert gas, the nitrogen, is soaked into our body, we could call it saturation. You will maybe have heard of fast tissues and slow tissues. We use these terms to describe how quickly the tissue in question is saturated with nitrogen. This is determined largely by bloodflow (perfusion) If a tissue has good bloodflow then it is said to be a fast tissue. The blood itself is a fast tissue, along with the major organs and central nervous system. Slow tissues have poor blood flow such as bones, skin and fat. These classifications are quite important in deco it is how they behave which determines how long we decompress and can effect our dive plan. I mentioned saturation earlier. The nitrogen we breathe underwater is absorbed into our tissues. The faster tissues obviously absorb it faster than the slow ones. At the beginning of the dive all the fast tissues are absorbing that nitrogen like billio, whilst the slower tissues will absorb it slower, obviously. Depending on the depth (which has a bearing on the nitrogen number) and the time some of the slow tissues may not absorb any nitrogen at all, but if they do you have to deco longer. This is because a slow tissue also has poor diffusion, which is a term used to describe the rate at which the nitrogen (or any gas) leaves the tissues as you ascend. If you have stayed at depth long enough some of the slower tissues may have absorbed some nitrogen and now as you ascend you need to let these tissues diffuse the nitrogen to the blood stream and through the lungs. This is why when you play with your favourite deco software sometimes for just a few minutes more bottom time you have to do 2, 3, 4 or more times deco time. :SIDE NOTE: This is important to understand because it has a bearing on your air supply. If you are not careful and have not stuck to your initial plan you may not have enough air to do the deco safely and may miss stops. If you haven't planned your dive at all and place your faith in the computer you may get a shock if you go into deco and it tells you you need to spend 15 minutes at 6 mtrs or something. So Plan the Dive and Dive the Plan. I digress. So at this point you now know that the deco performance of your body is largely down to blood flow. A tissue with good perfusion has good diffusion. One point to note is that if we ascend faster than the rate of diffusion then bubbles are created in the tissue, which is DCI. We don't want that so we control our ascent according to the diffusion of the tissues. We can influence the rate of nitrogen perfusion and diffusion with different deco gasses but thats another topic. This is the same for every dive, so EVERY DIVE IS A DECO DIVE, even your 15 mtr red sea bimble. Now to get to the point of my post. We saw that as we got deeper diving air the partial pressure of nitrogen grows quite significantly. Recent studies have shown that this increased pressure of nitrogen has an effect on our red blood cells. An effect called Red Blood Cell Rigidity, similar in fact to sickle cell. Blood flows through capillaries which are tubes running through our body. As the capillaries reach the tissues the tubes get very thin and the red blood cells need to squeeze through. If they are rigid it is harder for them to travel and this therefore reduces the perfusion of the tissue, which is a bad thing, remember, as it will also effect the diffusion, which we want to be as efficient as possible. As these blood cells are forced through the capillaries they can also cause microcirculatory damage, again hindering the deco process. All this damage then kicks in our immune system, which can cause flu like symptoms after a dive, although this will only be on significantly deep or long dives on air where the damage may be significant. This is the reason not to dive deep on air, as well as narcosis which we often discuss. The absolute answer is to dive shallower for shorter obviously, but for many of us that is unacceptable and so we have to find a solution. What we do is we reduce the amount of nitrogen we are breathing, either by replacing it with oxygen on shallower dives (nitrox) or with helium on deeper dives (trimix). Smart people will also realise that a nitrox cert should be a mandatory qualification. It is not the increase in oxygen which is the benefit, it is the reduction in nitrogen. So our view is the only use for air is filling your tyres. Andy PS Disclaimer: I am no way pretending to be an expert or anything, so feel free to correct any errors. Last edited by And : 15-07-04 at 09:12 PM. |
| ||||
| Two points.. As you may have seen on Scubaboard air is not the best gas for tyres. Second air and diving would have been better since it is only really for filling drysuits... Chris
__________________ BSAC internet branch 2411 - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ydesac/ So much better than BSAC direct and much less hassle than your local branch.. Last edited by chrisch : 15-07-04 at 09:11 PM. Reason: Pissed.. |
| ||||
| Hi No worries. I haven't read it, only articles referring to it. I am waiting for a full copy. Quote:
|
| ||||
| bingo Quote:
Ask me nicely... veeeeery nicely I tried to attach it here, but this site won't let me. The interesting bit is in the conclusion with says "these results suggest that the elevation in RBC aggregability is due to hydrostatic rather than to gas pressure, but this remains to be confirmed" basically, they found that clumping would occur dramatically in the 66ft compression range and significantly less so in the 300ft range. They also played around with gas fractional composition, which was found to have minimal impact. Theres a whole lot of interesting references.... Im working on collating this stuff on a website, I'll try and get it up soon. (ooer!) Having said that, I tend to agree... air is baaaad, its only saving grace is price/simplicity. I havent dived air in years.
__________________ "Eagles may soar, but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines" Last edited by wreckweasel : 15-07-04 at 10:07 PM. Reason: generosity? |
| ||||
| Hi Cool. Is there anything in there which is contrary to what I posted mate? Pretty please ![]() Andy |
| ||||
| Without seeing the study, was it in vivo or vitro? If there is an effect on RBC cell membrane surface tension then this might suggest that other cells would be similarly affected? What is the mechanism by which increased hydrostatic or N partial pressure exerts such an effect? Interesting stuff and probably poses more questions than it answers. |
| ||||
| In vitro Tim Here is an intro to the study Quote:
|
| ||||
| Both.. as far as I can see theres references to both. I've sent a copy to andy, will also put a copy on our website tonight/tomoz and post a link
__________________ "Eagles may soar, but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines" |
| |||
| The reference is certainly interesting and I for one would like to see more research properly cited, but an "n" of eleven is too small to perform reliable statisical analyses, and p=0.05 while significant, doesn't exactly rock the boat, especially with in vitro work. There are numerous examples of in vitro results which are not seen with in vivo research, plus there are many factors, diet especially, which can affect blood flow and cellular effects. |
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
| |
| | ||