Equipment Config simply wrong outside Florida?

[RichW]

Originally Posted by TerryH

Like most training its all about number crunching.

By far the vast majority of the worlds divers, do not get past basic grades
(Ocean /Open Water etc.).

Do you think that these two facts are linked? If you put students through conveyor belt training, then they won't feel confident or competent to continue with their diving. This to me explains a lot about why retention rates in the sport are so low. There are other reasons, for sure, but this is a big one that is our own fault.

Originally Posted by TerryH

To use a long hose you need to donate primary
and as you have said that introduces the scenario where for a brief time
both parties are OOA. With the simply vast number of divers being trained,
sooner or later and even with Instructor supervison, there would be a
problem. So you have the very real scenario that there would be more
incidents in training than would be OOA incidents for real.

Well, a diver donating from the primary regulator is not OOA. They just don't have a reg in their mouth. That is very diffeent from OOA. Correct training is required to donate in this way, in the same way that correct training for Octopus use is also required.

Originally Posted by TerryH

Currently I'm OAA, I grab occi off my buddy. Its a no brainer has been
proven to be effective time and again in almost every circumstance.

Only because you were trained how to do it. It isn't a no-brainer.

Originally Posted by TerryH

If you are an agency training vast numbers, KISS.

Exactly. Donate the working regulator.

Rich

[chrisch]

When we were last as St Saveur there was a bloke there with only one arm....

Chris

[tonhil]

The long hose debate always gets me worked up.

Try it!

It is much nicer in everyday diving than a short hose. Nothing to do with OOA and crap buddies.

You must have something waist-ish to tuck the hose under - kinda rules out a stab for the most part. You need to have a bolt snap on the second stage and a place to clip it to like a shoulder ring and presto... your diving is instantly more pleasant and enjoyable.

Not the least bit of the fun is going in at a busy site with your hose wrapped several times around your neck like in that infamous Diver Magazine article and watching the reaction of those around you.

[SoggyFox]

Originally Posted by Foggy

approach casualty from behind
Reach under casultys left arm for inflate with left arm or
Reach casultys hip dump with left arm.
Right arm reach under casultys chin to hold in reg and extend neck to avoid burst lung type thingy/ drowning.
Keep casulty horizontal and neutral
The latter allows you to let go periodically with at least one hand to read guages - deploy dsmb - gas switch - whatever
Easy as pie...........

ok i can see it working but no real difference to being face to face on the whole.

does this work more effeciently in an overhead environment?

sort of thinking this through if i'm rescueing someone my priority is to do it safely for them and me and not worry about the style judges.

[RichW]

Originally Posted by SoggyFox

ok i can see it working but no real difference to being face to face on the whole.

The face to face approach is fine for a concious buddy, but if they are unconcious, you are not able to open the airway for an ascent. This is particularly important if you're rescuing a victim of oxygen toxicity.

Originally Posted by SoggyFox

does this work more effeciently in an overhead environment?

Well, yes. You can swim someone out of a cave like this, but equally you could do it back to a shotline if required in an open water situation.

Rich

[neilh]

Originally Posted by JasonP

However, if you actually started from scratch to devise the ideal config for, say UK wreck diving, you wouldn't end up where you are now.

Just out of interest, what would you see as the key changes that you would make? For example I can see how you could consider wreck penetration as an overhead environment that would benefit from the same sort of thinking behind cave configurations. Granted there are specific considerations given that the environment is a rusting, man-made hulk - but then there would be specific considerations required for each cave as well (restrictions, flow, silt, etc).

Also if you consider non-penetration wreck diving, then wouldn't a scooter potentially allow you to explore and enjoy much more of the wreck?

[SoggyFox]

Originally Posted by RichW

The face to face approach is fine for a concious buddy, but if they are unconcious, you are not able to open the airway for an ascent. This is particularly important if you're rescuing a victim of oxygen toxicity.

just getting my head round this, rather than an actual hand hold on the casualty i'm bear hugging them from behind, giving me the option of a hand to extend the neck/keep the reg in, one to control bouyancy, and the bear hug to keep hold of the body.

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by SoggyFox

ok i can see it working but no real difference to being face to face on the whole.

does this work more effeciently in an overhead environment?

sort of thinking this through if i'm rescueing someone my priority is to do it safely for them and me and not worry about the style judges.

I don't know. When I post the sequel to our Maltesers report, I will be saying that rescuing anyone anyhow and maintaining neutral position and being able to do stops and gas switching is a tad difficult - I think the comment from the boat was were you trying to land the f***ker on the deck or what?

Never tried it in an overhead environment.

I would always try to do it as safely as possible. I would add that this is a skill that, whilst it sounds simple, is the hardest thing I have ever done.

Cheers, Paul

[chrisch]

Originally Posted by RichW

....
Exactly. Donate the working regulator.

Maybe time for yet another thread

Oddly enough we were talking about primary donation at the weekend in the face of our IFC this coming weekend.

Primary donation is the better method and the BSAC view is wrong (speaking as a soon-to-be-BSAC-instructor ) however, I understand why the Octo view is put forward. Nevertheless my own personal view is that by donating the primary you will always ensure that your backup is a working reliable reg.

Watching loads of divers on the wreck this weekend in various stages of training and competence I would not wish to rely on them to provide me with gas should I need it. If I know I'm going to give away my primary I am going to make damn sure the backup works. I saw enough AAS waving about unrestrained and possibly not working to know that while the "grab the AAS" should work it may not.

In an ideal world either method is acceptable, but the world is not ideal and therefore I maintain my view that primary donation is the better method.

Chris

[milldog]

Originally Posted by SoggyFox

just getting my head round this, rather than an actual hand hold on the casualty i'm bear hugging them from behind, giving me the option of a hand to extend the neck/keep the reg in, one to control bouyancy, and the bear hug to keep hold of the body.

I did a few days diving from Ilfracombe and they used the short strop to get the unconscious casualty up and were able to give air and extend the neck, having only seen this use once was on a recovery, to do the weekend was fantastic

Graham