Long hose question

[TerryH]

Originally Posted by NotDeadYet

Even if it doesn't the last thing you want is someone who isn't happy with nothing to breathe behind you where you can't see them.

Its an absolutely known that in any stress situation people want
anybody else to make the decision. Surely sticking someone in front means
that he/she is leading and not exactly going to be A1 at doing it.

The other point is that the first rule of any rescue is self-preservation.
You are not going to be much help if you come a cropper as well.

So again being behind the person who is out of gas, potentialy pretty
stressed and who is making leading decisions etc. doesnt sound like much
of a good plan to me.

I can see how middle would work, but not up front.

[Mal Bridgeman]

Originally Posted by TerryH

Its an absolutely known that in any stress situation people want
anybody else to make the decision. Surely sticking someone in front means
that he/she is leading and not exactly going to be A1 at doing it.

The other point is that the first rule of any rescue is self-preservation.
You are not going to be much help if you come a cropper as well.

So again being behind the person who is out of gas, potentialy pretty
stressed and who is making leading decisions etc. doesnt sound like much
of a good plan to me.

I can see how middle would work, but not up front.

Terry you are perhaps reading too much into the "leading" piece. Firstly they lost their gas not their brain so they ought to function near normally ....as a donor you did not donate your brain so you still have a job to do as well ..in touch contact you are aslo guiding them home.... and in these cases you would probably be following a line anyway?
Mal

[TerryH]

Originally Posted by Mal Bridgeman

Terry you are perhaps reading too much into the "leading" piece. Firstly they lost their gas not their brain so they ought to function near normally ....as a donor you did not donate your brain so you still have a job to do as well ..in touch contact you are aslo guiding them home.... and in these cases you would probably be following a line anyway?
Mal

Not sure of your logic there Mal. If there wasnt an issue then it shoudnt
make ANY difference as to the positions. The very fact that you actually
specify a pecking order, tends to lend weight to the possibility that things
may change. Cant have it both ways.

[iainmsmith]

Originally Posted by nigelH

Rule one is 'Don't dive with Strokes'.

From then on the assumption is built in that your buddy is to be trusted

Using a long hose with novice is using it as a fashion accessory. It is the wrong equipment at the wrong time in the wrong place. I have a nice 12L single on a BCD with a pony for diving with newbies. They watch me and copy me. Monkey see, monkey do. Diving my wonderful rebreather would be totally unfair and unhelpful. Ditto a long hose.

Got to disagree with you Nigel.

Firstly, "newbie" does not equal "stroke".

Secondly, if I'm in the water with an inexperienced buddy, why on earth would I sacrifice the practiced habit, speed and reliability of me donating my primary to them if they get into trouble. Ideally, I'd like them to give me the same courtesy, but on the sort of dive that I would do with a newbie, I'm pretty confident of my ability to sort myself out. Especially as I'll almost certainly be in a twinset.

A long hose lets one deal with an OOA situation without the horrible, tight, cramped feeling one gets with standard length hoses. As has been pointed out, you don't have to give the recipient the full 7' straight off, but the extra freedom adds significant comfort to the situation, irrespective of what else one can do with it.

As you know, I used to teach for a club where long hoses were actively encouraged and, I belive, are still used from day 1, albeit with the limitations of BSAC's limitations on not teaching primary donation. It works...

As for "monkey see, monkey do", I'd far rather encourage a newbie to go for long hose, primary donate and proper dive planning and execution than wasting money on a pony. Were you on the UKRS boat where I lifted someone out of 30m? Remember his peak SAC?

I.

[iainmsmith]

Originally Posted by TerryH

Not sure of your logic there Mal. If there wasnt an issue then it shoudnt
make ANY difference as to the positions. The very fact that you actually
specify a pecking order, tends to lend weight to the possibility that things
may change. Cant have it both ways.

Terry,

The reason the OOA diver goes in front is to avoid the long hose getting accidentally pulled out. There's no more to it than that.

If the OOA diver is behind and the donor swims ahead, the donated reg could get pulled out without the recipient knowing. The fact that we are talking one-ahead-of-the-other implies a restriction (or silt-out) , in other words, the lead diver cannot easily turn round to sort out the recipient. Hence they go in front where they are not going to outswim their breathing source.

Also, if you're in that sort of situation for more than the shortest possible time, you ought to be there with people trained for that situation, ie, cave divers. This implies a guideline - ie follow the white line home - not to mention training.

If you're not in the situation requiring cave training, you shouldn't be in a situation where extended linear exits are required. You can go side-by-side most of the time (where the donor is holding onto the recipient's elbow, guiding them), or even face-to-face on an ascent (not necessarily holding onto each other, provided both are sufficiently calm to be controlling their own buoyancy).

If you're worried about decision making, how much does it take to signal "That way. Go."? Or, in OW, "Up"?

Iain

[TerryH]

Yep I dont disagree with any of that, but it really does depend on the state
of the diver.

What you are talking about about is an assist and that means both divers
working together for a common aim.

It only becomes a bit iffy when it turns into a rescue and as you say, let's
hope that shoudnt be an issue with such trained divers.

In the end it comes down to an assessment of risk and somebody has done
the math that there is a greater chance of the reg being pulled out, then
there is the OOG diver freaking out because of the task loading of leading in
a stressed state.

Let's hope they are right.

[Al_Star]

Originally Posted by TerryH

Yep I dont disagree with any of that, but it really does depend on the state of the diver.

What you are talking about about is an assist and that means both divers
working together for a common aim.

It only becomes a bit iffy when it turns into a rescue and as you say, let's
hope that shoudnt be an issue with such trained divers.

In the end it comes down to an assessment of risk and somebody has done
the math that there is a greater chance of the reg being pulled out, then
there is the OOG diver freaking out because of the task loading of leading in
a stressed state.

Let's hope they are right.

As Iain points out a protracted exit where the OOG diver has to lead should only apply if you are penetrating a wreck, in a cave or lining off from a shot where you HAVE to ascend up the shotline. All three are 1/3's dives essentially using a guideline and are more involved than a standard open water bimble where everyone just bags off and ascends.

So we have divers swimming in single file because they are in a restriction, on a thirds dive with essentially an overhead (must return to shot is pretty much that requirement). If they are experienced enough for that sort of dive they should be able to follow the guideline. And the donating diver doesn't switch off their brain they can get into touch contact with the OOG diver and help guide them.

If however it is an open water dive then they just ascend face to face, no need to swim single file. If they have to work their way back to the start and it's not restricted then you can swim side by side.

Essentially for a couple of decades all the cave agencies have been teaching this. It's very much been tried and tested and is less stressful for the OOG diver than trying to keep up with their gas supply as it swims away from them!

Cheers
Al