Why?

[milldog]

first of all I'll say don't take this as a dig i would hate the black Gestapo to hunt me down and make me swim with the fishes permanently,

could you tell me what your courses qualify you for?
and i have looked at the web so if you have some specific links please forward them to me

I.E. does the Fundy's cover advance deco and nitrox to 100%, or does the tech 1 cover you to dive to 85meters on trimix.

if so why as all other agencies have stages to follow and set limits, to get the dive to that stage,

at the moment after speaking to some of you DIR types you just seem to think that after tech 1 you can only dive with each other and that other agency's are below you?

correct me if i am wrong is this just the minority?

THIS IS NOT A DIG JUST A QUESTION

[neilh]

Originally Posted by milldog

first of all I'll say don't take this as a dig i would hate the black Gestapo to hunt me down and make me swim with the fishes permanently,

Not a great start then, you won't encourage useful responses like that!

Originally Posted by milldog

could you tell me what your courses qualify you for?

I.E. does the Fundy's cover advance deco and nitrox to 100%, or does the tech 1 cover you to dive to 85meters on trimix.

You'd need an instructor to give you the full and accurate answer, but the old fundies didn't qualify you for anything except taking further GUE training courses. The new fundies, I believe, qualifies you to use 32% Nitrox.

Tech1 qualifies you for trimix (but I'm sure it's around the 50M depth, not 85M). It may qualify you for 50% Nitrox and 100% O2 - not sure.

Originally Posted by milldog

if so why as all other agencies have stages to follow and set limits, to get the dive to that stage,

Not sure I follow this - GUE also has stages to follow (DIR-F -> tech1, etc) and each stage has limits and a skills level you need to reach.

Originally Posted by milldog

at the moment after speaking to some of you DIR types you just seem to think that after tech 1 you can only dive with each other and that other agency's are below you?

That's a bit of a sweeping generalisation there. Please don't start the usual agency ruck! (Though I don't think there's been one for a while, perhaps we're due one )

If you have specific questions about GUE training ask away, I'm sure you'll get some responses.

[Clare Gledhill]

Hmm. OK I'll answer the question straight.

Qualifications are linked to gases - which we dive in certain ranges.

DIR F will qualify you for further GUE training if you require, in rescue and 32 per cent Nitrox. Interestingly, a tech pass qualifies you in the use of a twinset - I know that other agencies are thinking of bringing in offical certficiation for twinset use but GUE actually specifies it on the card.

Tri-ox is recreational trimix - using 30/30 which is an intermediate trimix used in the 24 - 36 metre range.

Tech 1 is normoxic trimix and qualifies you for the use of 21/35 which we use in a range up to 48 metres. Decompression may be carried out on 50 per cent or O2 - but not both.

Tech 2 is the advanced trimix qualification and qualifies you for multiple deco gasses and the use of 15/55 to a depth of around 70 metres.

Regarding the decision to dive with GUE trained divers, one of the strengths of GUE training is that we dive with standard proceedures - which we will not get if we dive with people trained under other agencies - regardless of how good they are as divers. I very occasionally dive with non GUE divers - some of whom I regard very highly - but it is never as comfortable as diving with people who have been trained the same way as me.

[Lou]

Originally Posted by Clare Gledhill

Tech 1 is normoxic trimix and qualifies you for the use of 21/35 which we use in a range up to 48 metres. Decompression may be carried out on 50 per cent or O2 - but not both.

.

Does that mean that dives over 48m flat are outside of Tech 1 qualifications then? Or dives carrying two stages?

[Clare Gledhill]

Yes (although there are some statements in the standards which mean you could argue it differently - the use of 18/45 is generally accepted with one deco gas - which would take you beyond 48 metres).

For quite some time there was a great deal of difficulty in getting training beyond the Tech 1 level arranged - so many have done courses with other agencies to ensure that they are covered for life insurance purposes - as have I.

GUE are holding the first UK Tech 2 courses in August though - and hopefully there will soon be a UK based Tech 2 instructor

[Howard Payne]

DIR-F is an introduction to the equipment and methodology and principals of GUE and teaches you advanced trim and buoyancy, technical fin strokes, use of twinsets, shutdowns, DSMB's, horizontal ascents and descents; donating gas in OOA situations; basic use of primary lights; basic GUE team diving, gas planning, basic nitrox, balanced equipment config and simple technical rescue. It qualifies you for no greater depth than you already dive to with existing agency training. It prepares people for Tech 1 and was originally conceived because people were going into Tech 1 without the necessary basic skills to stand a fighting chance of passing.

I did it back in May with 7 other people: A twenty dive PADI OW newbie at one end of the scale and 2000 dive trimix veteran at the other and everyone found they learnt loads. As a sweeping generalisation I would say that whilst it doesn't actually qualify you to do anything more than you do already, you will see a huge improvement in your diving for doing fundies almost regardless of your level of experience.

Everything you do on any GUE course is videoed so that you can analyse your own performance in a debrief afterwards. This is a really powerful tool as you are very rarely are doing what you think you're doing!

Tech 1 is a Normoxic Trimix course that qualifies you to dive to around 50m on standard gases (30/30 & 21/35 - GUE doesn't believe in using weak Nitrox mixes below 30m - an END of >30m is a basic standard). In addition you are taught advanced decompression theory which includes deco on the fly (working out the deco in your head rather than using computers); advanced team diving skills; line skills (ie: basic penetration). The course is limited to one Nitrox based deco gas (usually an AL80 of 50%).

All the courses are tough - don't believe half of what you read on the internet tho' - it's not a religion or any nonsense like that - just an exceptionally good technical diving agency with a set of fairly rigid standards which are borne out of what has been found to work well over the course of tens of thousands of dives in extremely demanding conditions.

GUE divers aren't generally "snobby" about who they dive with in my experience - but when you've been through the courses and worked hard at developing the high level of teamwork that is central to the system - its quite natural to want to dive with members of that team and / or similarly trained people. The benefits of this team diving are probably the single biggest strength of GUE training.

Its fair to say that to get the most from DIR-F - you will need to be diving a wing and plate with a long hose - its very hard to get the required "trim" from a conventional BCD. Someone like Rich Walker, the GUE Fundamentals Instructor for the UK, who is on this forum would almost certainly lend you this equipment to try it before or during DIR-F.

There are plenty of people diving a DIR equipment setup who aren't GUE trained. The whole rig is exceptionally simple, streamlined and uncluttered and works brilliantly in the water.

Hope I got all the Tech 1 details right (I haven't done the course yet) please correct me someone if the detail isn't quite right.

HTH - ATB

[Lou]

Originally Posted by Clare Gledhill

Yes (although there are some statements in the standards which mean you could argue it differently - the use of 18/45 is generally accepted with one deco gas - which would take you beyond 48 metres).

For quite some time there was a great deal of difficulty in getting training beyond the Tech 1 level arranged - so many have done courses with other agencies to ensure that they are covered for life insurance purposes - as have I.

GUE are holding the first UK Tech 2 courses in August though - and hopefully there will soon be a UK based Tech 2 instructor

This is where it all gets a bit confusing gain, I guess.

So, you are only qualified to use one standard gas in the style in which you dive - but there are laxities in the wording that let you use a hypoxic mix mix on a normoxic card?

In order to "get around" the limitations of the training you then take other training with agencies that teach things slightly differntly and superimpose that training on top of the tech 1 training to allow you to exceed the GUE limits?

So why do you need Tech 2? What advances are there in tech 2 (that you aren't already using under remit of your other agency training) over the standards and attitude training that your previous GUE courses have taught you?

I amy not be being very clear in getting my thoughts down here. Let me try another way.

GUE teach certain protocols and most importantly to the philosophy, an attitude. You do DIRF to ensure you have the basic skills. You then do Tech 1, which teaches you technical drills and handling of equipment, and some trimix & deco theory.

You then do further training with another agency that you consider to be sufficent, when combined with your previous GUE training to allow you to exceed Tech 1 standards and still dive safely and "DIR".

So, what I don't understand is what Tech 2 would bring to the part for someone in this position? Either you are doing dives beyond Tech 1 status safely already, or you aren't, and if you aren't then under the DIR philosophy you wouldn't be doing them at all?

Note: The "you" is not "you", Clare, but a non-specific, second-person identifier. This is not a personal question.#

Lou

[RichClark]

Originally Posted by Clare Gledhill

DIR F will qualify you for further GUE training if you require, in rescue and 32 per cent Nitrox.

Tri-ox is recreational trimix - using 30/30 which is an intermediate trimix used in the 24 - 36 metre range.

Tech 1 is normoxic trimix and qualifies you for the use of 21/35 which we use in a range up to 48 metres. Decompression may be carried out on 50 per cent or O2 - but not both.

Tech 2 is the advanced trimix qualification and qualifies you for multiple deco gasses and the use of 15/55 to a depth of around 70 metres.

So does that effectivley mean that if you dive outside of these ranges for any reason other that training dives you're no longer doing it right?

Cheers

Rich

[RichW]

Howard, Clare and Neil have just about got all of the bases covered here, I think, as far as what DIRF and Tech 1 "allows" you to do.

DIRF is a little strange - there's nothing that is new, but the GUE approach to diving skills, teamwork and planning are empasised in a much more joined up way.

The in-water work will teach you more about your diving skills than any other course of which I am aware. You will also get a solid breakdown of where you are now, and how to get to where you want to be.

As Howard says, if you want to try out any equipment, then feel free to ask - I have sets available just for this purpose. Also, there's a DIR demo down in Portland on 16th July, where I'm sure you could also get equipment advice.

Rich

[nickb]

Originally Posted by Lou

So, you are only qualified to use one standard gas in the style in which you dive - but there are laxities in the wording that let you use a hypoxic mix mix on a normoxic card?

As far as TDI are concerned, and I suspect GUE too, 18% O2 is not considered hypoxic.

My TDI Normoxic Trimix card states:

Qualified in trimix diving (helium based), with a 18% mixture or greater, use of nitrox/oxygen for deco/stage gases, to a max depth of 200fsw/60 msw.