Learning GUE Principals without Kit Issues

[Fiona]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

I put them both up as i wasent sure if it was a PADI or a BSAC instructor you hadent listened to before. Out of curiosity why do you feel the GUE instructor saying this has any more impact?


Always Talking B*ll*cks

Mark

I am sure the last sentence wasn't there when I went to quote you. I couldn't even work out what you were getting at but I suppose you mean which training system did I start with - I learned to dive with BSAC which I am sure you already know.

Tell me you don't trawl through various training agency manuals to try and make a point.

Maybe over the years we get a little complacent with our skills, I have dived with a lot of people and there is a lot more emphasis on the team / buddies (what ever you want to call it) with GUE training. You are putting too much on the instructor element here Mark, my dive development has continued long after I left Vobster exactly 12 months ago.

Why can't you accept that for "most" people and it seems everyone except you have gained something from the course, Fin has mentioned how people have commented how his awareness skills have improved.

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Garf

Probably because the team ethos is perfused throughout every drill, process, procedure and course. Everything involves the team. The team do valve drills the team do S drills. You are more likely to be picked up for poor teamwork than anything else. This is NOt the case with the examples you describe above, although TDI do teach self sufficiency within a team environment, and Mark Powell does a great job of encouraging people to be aware of, and work within, a team.

So if it wasn't my buddy who did I do the PADI buddy checks with before the dive? If not my buddy then who did I do the air share drill with? If it wasn't my buddy who did I do the CBL with?

We also did skills as buddy pairs when we did PADI OW

There is nothing stopping a PADI diver having the self discipline to do proper pre dive checks and planning or doing practice drills with his buddy.

As an example of this when ever I dive with my wife we do a swap to back up reg drill and an air share drill on my 2m hose. She is PADI AOW and I instigated these drill long before I knew what DIR was.

The GUE mearly emphasize what we were told to do in PADI OW or BSAC Sports Diver.

It comes back to the fact we didn't listen properly the first time.


I managed to answer the question above quickly because i just grabbed the PADI OW training manual and the BSAC Sports diver manual off the shelf by my work desk.

They are good books and once a diver has got some experience they are well worth reading again. I have never done a BSAC course but i bought the manual and read it anyway. I also have four GUE manuals that i read long before doing DIRF.

If you want to be a good diver you just have to do what you were taught the first time and do it well.

ATB



Mark

[Fiona]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

If you want to be a good diver you just have to do what you were taught the first time and do it well.

ATB

Mark

Would that be the first time in 1989 Mark this does sound like excellent training

Originally Posted by Mark chase

My fist ever dive followed a session on the beech where we sat in a circle holding hands in about 2m of water with scuba kit on. We had to do a mask clear and I think a reg out reg back in again and that was it, we were considered good to go.

Or the second time in 1999

Originally Posted by mark chase

I had to do this dive but I wasn’t qualified so I signed up for a PADI Adventure Diving course which included a 30m deep dive and a Wreck dive.

[IanDennis]

Re:"If you want to be a good diver you just have to do what your were taught the first time"

Which again comes down to the quality of the instructor.

Irrespective of agency we can all train divers to have a greater level of awareness and observation. Surely as Mark points out this is something that even basic training covers.

All of the technical agencies - TDI, IANTD, GUE - seek to ensure that divers act as co-hesive unit when underwater.

GUE might seem to take this a step further but fundamentally the emphasis is the same.

[Mark Chase]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Fiona

I am sure the last sentence wasn't there when I went to quote you. I couldn't even work out what you were getting at but I suppose you mean which training system did I start with - I learned to dive with BSAC which I am sure you already know.

No I didn't and all i added was the question at the end on why you felt the GUE instructor telling you about buddy skills had more impact than the BSAC statement above?

Tell me you don't trawl through various training agency manuals to try and make a point.

I didnt have to I know both books quite well and i knew the statemts were in there.

Maybe over the years we get a little complacent with our skills, I have dived with a lot of people and there is a lot more emphasis on the team / buddies (what ever you want to call it) with GUE training. You are putting too much on the instructor element here Mark, my dive development has continued long after I left Vobster exactly 12 months ago.

Why can't you accept that for "most" people and it seems everyone except you have gained something from the course, Fin has mentioned how people have commented how his awareness skills have improved.

I gained a lot form the course but I didnt go for the rose tited glases option.

If GUE did an ECCR id be on it, and if I go back to OC Il dive full on GUE.

Not because the system is any better than IANTD TDI SAC or any other but purely because it attracts divers with my mind set. The same mind set I had long before I ever did a GUE course or read a GUE manual.

I had found simila divers to dive with who are not GUE but GUE seems to gather them all in the same place and make choosing a buddy much easier.

I also beleive standardisation makes for impreoved safety and i would be willing to sacrafice a lot of my personal preferances for the sake of those benifits.


Perhaps you should go back and read my first post again. I didn't say GUE was crap, I said do it 100% all the way or do not do it at all. There is nothing to be gained by cherry picking it. I stick by that because I don't want divers carrying a GUE cert and pretending to dive GUE who are not 100% behind the system and its standards.

Those standards are what sets it apart and nothing else.

ATB

Mark

[Mal Bridgeman]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

course will teach you magical things when in fact it just points out the blindingly bloody obvious.

Isn't that the case with all training though.....?

Mal

[Digger]

Originally Posted by Fiona

Bollocks.

Maybe if you did a course you would learn something about "good old buddy diving", I recall a dive I did with you and Jen last year, you and Jen were supposed to be a buddy pair - you finned off without a backward glance.

Just because I know something, doesn't mean I do it all the time. I have been trained to be an attentive careful buddy, but it doesn't mean I do it all the time.

A massive majority of us have a driving licence and have been taught to drive safely, yet how many of us have caused an accident through not following a basic rule of driving? If everyone followed the Green Cross Code all the time there wouldn't be any accidents (or very very few) which is taught to us by a driving instructor when we learn to drive. If I'd listened to him I wouldn't have had any of the accidents I have been in, and the fact is it was included in the training. The training was good, however after the event I chose to disregard some part of it. As a result a bad thing happened. Same with buddy skills. Leave a buddy behind and they can happily die on their own without you knowing. We are trained to stick together. Some of us forget or choose not to follow this instruction.

I refuse to believe that 4 days with an instructor is going to make a difference by comparison to months of having these things drilled into me, not just one buddy, but a group of 6 or more. If I didn't learn from that, then 4 days of being told I have to do that again is just going to get me to stick my hands at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock to pass the test.

Digs.

[Digger]

Originally Posted by Mal Bridgeman

Isn't that the case with all training though.....?

Mal

Not rebreathers. The courses can teach you things you couldn't ever describe as blindingly obvious. I've learnt things about units I built from instructors on how they work, and they hadn't even seen the thing! It was not blindingly obvious. It was a complex machine that I had created and didn't realise the implications of some of the bits of the design.

Same is true for a great many units. If you do x, y and z that seemed perfectly reasonable you could kill yourself, and it wouldn't be intuitive or obvious.

Still not convinced of the value of a course which is a prerequisite to further training and teaches me to reach a standard that a well trained AOW diver should be able to do. The fact that the PADI system has not kept the small number of instructors etc so that they can ensure their training is of the highest standard is no surprise, but the reality is if you tried to charge an extra £400 for an AOW course for the time and effort required to get to the same standard you'd get told to piss off.

Digs.

[Madfish]

Originally Posted by Digger

Just because I know something, doesn't mean I do it all the time. I have been trained to be an attentive careful buddy, but it doesn't mean I do it all the time.A massive majority of us have a driving licence and have been taught to drive safely, yet how many of us have caused an accident through not following a basic rule of driving? If everyone followed the Green Cross Code all the time there wouldn't be any accidents (or very very few) which is taught to us by a driving instructor when we learn to drive. If I'd listened to him I wouldn't have had any of the accidents I have been in, and the fact is it was included in the training. The training was good, however after the event I chose to disregard some part of it. As a result a bad thing happened. Same with buddy skills. Leave a buddy behind and they can happily die on their own without you knowing. We are trained to stick together. Some of us forget or choose not to follow this instruction.I refuse to believe that 4 days with an instructor is going to make a difference by comparison to months of having these things drilled into me, not just one buddy, but a group of 6 or more. If I didn't learn from that, then 4 days of being told I have to do that again is just going to get me to stick my hands at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock to pass the test.Digs.

Sorry Jack - your driving instructor must have been pretty concerned about your situational awareness if he thought it necessary to teach you the Green Cross Code - that was something your mum was supposed to do.......
Di 

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Fiona

Would that be the first time in 1989 Mark this does sound like excellent training



Or the second time in 1999

I dont get your point?

First course was a resort course in St Lucia second was a Deep and Wreck speciality course to let me dive the Victory Wreck in the Maldives. The wreck was 34m deep so they wouldent let me do it on a PADI OW or my previous French cert.

I did the two days training and they decided I was good enough to do a 34m deep full wreck penitration deco dive in a ripping current.

Surley this proves my point that the cert cards and training mean nothing. If you consolidate the skills taught in PADI OW you can still be a good diver. I had obviously demonstrated this throughout the previous weeks diving in order for them to let me do a dive which was theoreticly wayyyyyyy beyound my cert level.

ATB

Mark