do-it-right

[msssltd]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (wetlettuce @ Aug. 24 2003,22:21)]DIR is a system, has been developed over thousands of dives from simple reef and wreck dives to extreme deep cave dives.

Please correct me if I am wrong but it appears that DIR is dictated by one man, possibly two.  The development can only be a result of their personal experiences.  I am sure that their experience is extensive for an individual but it will never encompass the variation encountered on the hundreds of thousands of dives made every year.  GUE are clearly focused on one particular type of diving.  The kit and practices are optimised for what they do.  When the environmental problems are different so called DIR is inevitably a compromise.

IMHO the whole thing is an anachronism.  GUE will not accept compromise (good) but they expect everyone else to (bad).

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]I find it a lot more comforting to know that this has already been tried and tested and that it is the most successful method found rather than wondering if I'm doing it the best and most efficient way.

What the most successful method is, is a matter of opinion which in turn is based on personal experience.  For instance when swimming up a long incline at a shallow angle, having your wing inflate to hand and being able to dump without changing position is highly desirable.  When your diving a deep square profile in tidal conditions it really is not that important.  Inflate the wing on descent and occasionally dump to account for the gas your breathing on the bottom.  During the protracted vertical ascent when invariably one hand is full of reel or shot line you may want to get to your inflate/dump PDQ and it is more efficient if you can do it with either hand.  

In my experience, I have had boats drift over my DSMB during deco stops (half a dozen times), I have once or twice hit sudden down currents which required the wing to be inflated to maintain the ascent.  I rarely need to dump while horizontal or in a confined space.  So MY opinion is that the most efficient location for MY wing dump is on the centre line just below the chest.

Now to the point, I apologise for the lengthy preamble. My ARSE* config is the result of experience.  It is based on what I find works and what does not work.  There is no false comfort factor.  I know exactly why I do things a particular way and I know why I do not use the alternatives.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]If you read JJ's book, and other resources on the web the whys are given and are, to a large extent, undisputable (IMHO of course )

There are other books which will give you other reasons to do things in other ways.  Rob Palmer, Kevin Gurr, Brett Gilliam etc.  Like em or loath them they are all accomplished tech divers who have put on paper why they use techniques other than DIR.  In fact I am hard pressed to think of any accomplished tech diver outside GUE who is completely DIR.  Whenever I talk to the people who routinely do what I aspire to, what becomes blatently obvious is their techniques evolve from practical experience, not from what is written on the web or preached from a soapbox.

The concern I have about DIR is that some people adopt it for no other reason than a vocal and vociferous tech diver says they should.  They are discouraged from asking is there a better way, they are discouraged from experimentation (in the shallows).  Frankly I think they are missing out on a very important learning experience.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Its just more work than is necessary and therefore not DIR (DIR=Less work, less stress, more enjoyment) Properly weighted you should be able to swim your gear up without buoyancy.

LMAO.  The irony is wonderful.  Have you ever tried to swim twins and stages up more than a few meters!!!  Swapping an LP hose on a dual bladder wing is a lot less work I guarantee you...But don't take my word for it, try it.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]This has been covered before. Look under spools in the equipment section. A spool doesn't cause friction burns and doesn't jam. I don't find it frightening, its quite fun.

Spools Vs reels is another point of contention.  I have seen a spool used successfully.  No question they can work very well.  I have also seen spools come out of pockets in a birds nest and others with the contents spilt across the wreck.  Recently I saw a guy tangled in his spool line after dropping it during the ascent, around 30m of slack line despooled to the bottom and the current blew him onto the line.  Personally I will stick with my Manta reel which can be locked and has a ratchet so such problems are not an issue.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ] I find reels frightening because they can jam without warning. Jamming at max dive depth can be a nightmare.

My opinion is different.  I have had to disentangle a pair of divers who were caught up on someone elses line. I have myself had to be disentangled after a buddy had a buoyancy failure and pulled a slack shot line down over me.    Disentangleing someone else burns time.  Disentangling yourself may be impossible.  I used to assist an archaeology team which meant using lines extensively.  Slack line in the water scares me.  A reel jam is a comparitively simple problem to solve.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]DIR is intolerant. Thats the truth. The kit is defined, the gasses are defined, the procedures are defined. It is precisely because of this that it is so successful in the technical diving world.

Yet few of the notable tech divers outside GUE are DIR.  Pick up a back copy of 990 and try to find a DIR diver.  Ask the CDG what they think of DIR.  Try testing Military and Commercial opinion of DIR.  All these groups are accomplished in areas beyond recreational diving.  All use techniques developed from an experience base wider than two individuals.  None of them are DIR.

The techniques and practices that are included in the DIR package are neither original nor unique to DIR.  Even the dictatorial nature of DIR is not exclusive. The Military and Commercial worlds are just as rigid in their approach to risk management...Interestingly neither claim that one size fits all.

IMVHO the only original DIR concept is the cult nature.  Accolytes must conform to the commandments and follow the one true way in order to secure their place as DIR.  The heathen masses are not worthy, they are pagan Strokes and must be cast out as pariah.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]'Sheep' as you put it, don't do that.

Quite right.  Sheep have a mind of their own and need hearding in the right direction.  DIR wannabes are more like ducklings, blindly following the first thing they see. (Ok that was a cheap shot ;-).

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]I've never met a weak minded DIR diver.

I can't think of many weak minded divers full stop.  Having a strong mind goes with the territory.  The problems come when such people believe they are right when they clearly or arguably are not.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]DIR Fundamentals is all about basic skills, and is taught totally differently than any other agency

The focus on basic skills is laudable.  The use of video is an excellent idea.  That they teach totally differently is very debateable.  AIUI DIRF uses a combination of lectures and in water demonstrations to introduce and assess techniques which the student is encouraged to go away and practise...the same as every other agency.  Admittedly they appear to be the only teaching agency that think denigrating the student is a valid aid to learning.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]The whole premise for DIR is that fact that this wasn't available from any other agency and the WKPP were getting divers who couldn't dive, yet had the C-Cards.

Unfortunately this is a problem with all qualification schemes, possibly because you can not control what happens after the qualification is awarded.  I doubt that GUE will be immune.  Give it a few years and there probably will be a host of G-Card carrying, Halcyon kitted muppets queing for the boats down at Portland.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]DIR is about diving, pure and simple, totally 100%

I beg to differ.  Proportions of DIR seem to be concerned with branding, marketing and meglomania.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Hope that helps

Oh yes it always helps to get this off my chest once in a while.  Replying to a post like yours helps remind me why I dislike DIR as a holistic diving system.  

IMHO you need to take active steps to combat the brain washing.  Regular practice of basic debating skills in a safe environment is absolutely essential

Regards
Matt

*ARSE - All the Right Stuff for the Environment

[Phil Ennis]

<font color='#0000FF'>A very interesting and well thought out post Matt. Very important that we think for ourselves and look at all the info that is out there and the different ways of achieving the same outcome. People will always do things in a different way to others and who is to say which is the correct one.

Keep an open mind and explore all avenues.

[And]

I'm sorry, I thought I was responding to SteveW, not asking for my post to be pulled apart and then get called loads of names and as usual very little constructive discussion.

Mark, I would have expanded on some of your post but not now.

Matt, you turn up and with only five posts proceed to start a Divernet type post picking apart my post and quoting out of context, not giving any facts but just vitriolic opinion designed to wind up anyone who dives DIR.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]
Now to the point, I apologise for the lengthy preamble. My ARSE* config is the result of experience.  It is based on what I find works and what does not work.  There is no false comfort factor.  I know exactly why I do things a particular way and I know why I do not use the alternatives.

Whenever I talk to the people who routinely do what I aspire to, what becomes blatently obvious is their techniques evolve from practical experience, not from what is written on the web or preached from a soapbox.

The concern I have about DIR is that some people adopt it for no other reason than a vocal and vociferous tech diver says they should.  They are discouraged from asking is there a better way, they are discouraged from experimentation (in the shallows).  Frankly I think they are missing out on a very important learning experience.


IMVHO the only original DIR concept is the cult nature.  Accolytes must conform to the commandments and follow the one true way in order to secure their place as DIR.  The heathen masses are not worthy, they are pagan Strokes and must be cast out as pariah.

Quite right.  Sheep have a mind of their own and need hearding in the right direction.  DIR wannabes are more like ducklings, blindly following the first thing they see. (Ok that was a cheap shot ;-).

The problems come when such people believe they are right when they clearly or arguably are not.

Admittedly they appear to be the only teaching agency that think denigrating the student is a valid aid to learning.

Give it a few years and there probably will be a host of G-Card carrying, Halcyon kitted muppets queing for the boats down at Portland.

I beg to differ.  Proportions of DIR seem to be concerned with branding, marketing and meglomania.

Oh yes it always helps to get this off my chest once in a while.  Replying to a post like yours helps remind me why I dislike DIR as a holistic diving system.  

IMHO you need to take active steps to combat the brain washing.  Regular practice of basic debating skills in a safe environment is absolutely essential  

That was successful. You know nothing of me, and by your response bugger all about DIR. I've debated DIR with better people than you who don't need to take cheap shots. And if YD is now full of people who think the above is well thought out then 'Welcome to the New Divernet!!'

This thread and all others are over for me.

Andy

[steve-k]

<font color='#000080'>wl
yes he has riped your post apart, and i would be upset too

finding fault is easy

maybe the dir aproach isnt for everybody, we all need to decide for ourselves

unfortunatley these slating posts are only going to fule the dir/srtoke rifts

it is a shame because there is allways somethibg to learn

[Phil Ennis]

<font color='#0000FF'>Andy, this is not a personal attack as far as I can see but an opinion of DIR. We all have our own opinions, don't take it so personally! PADI has been getting slagged longer and harder than DIR but I have no intention of spitting the dummy. Stay and contribute and try and convince non DIR divers that yours is the true way using reasoned arguments.

You have a great enthusiasm for your chosen way and a good deal of knowledge, so fight your corner, don't leg it cos the big boys are being nasty to you

Hope you change your mind. Whether you have 5 posts or 5000 you are still entitled to an opinion.

[And]

Hi

Phil, I really don't care whether you, Matt or anyone else dive DIR or not and I'm not about to try to convince you that it is 'the one true way'.

Steve asked a question and I answered it. I've then been quoted out of context twice and insulted. If DIR was being slagged then fine, but when called brainwashed by someone who's only been here for 5 minutes pisses me off quite frankly. I, like others are here voluntarily, not to score points but to talk about diving. Why stay to be called names? What benefit is it to me?

If he wants to debate then let him but he won't be able to, because then he'll have to be objective and these types of people gain their highly overrated opinion of themselves by calling names in order to persuade their opponent to retract. Its just a troll and should be regarded as such. I'm amazed you find it interesting and well thought out. Dream on.

You are right, everyones entitled to an opinion, and should be respected for it. Please point me to that part of matts post, because I missed it.

Andy

[Phil Ennis]

<font color='#0000FF'>I feel it was well thought out because he took the trouble to elaborate on points which had been raised and gave his opinion of them, I found that interesting. It was a breakaway from the normal DIR-Stroke debate and as such I also found it quite refreshing. If I was in your position then I would not have the same opinion.

When you post, whatever the subject then you leave yourself wide open to somebody disagreeing with you or your philosophy. Don't take it personally, use reasoned argument and if you feel you have been insulted then just treat that person in the way that they deserve by letting it go over your head. If this is a troll as you put it then they have got the result that they were after, don't give them the satisfaction.

I hope that you throw the lettuce back up and get stuck in again, no-one likes personal insults and I am sure the Mods will sort it if they feel it is getting out of hand.

[msssltd]

Andy

If you are truelly offended then I sincerely apologise.

My post is forthright because you described yourself as strong minded. &nbsp;I am aware that my style of critique can at times be insensitive and occassionaly obtuse, however the only personal insult or name calling I can see is referring to myself as an ARSE. &nbsp;

By all means point out where I lack &nbsp;accuracy, where I am illinformed or where I have been less than objective. &nbsp;I can assure you that I positively invite both critique and criticism. &nbsp;I only ask that you stick to what I have written and not what you think I may have written.

The post is not a troll because I have genuine concerns &nbsp;regarding the points highlighted;
That a system can not be optimal in dissimilar circumstances.
That practical experience of what does not work, gained in a relatively safe environment should be a factor in diver development, the same as regular practice of basic skills should be.
That DIR to some extent flies in the face of what other established players are doing.
That DIR uses 'cultist' methods to establish legitamacy.

My post is on YD because I thought there might be a chance of a discussion on these points. &nbsp;I thought I had left plenty of scope for talking about diving but by accident or design the conversation appears to have turned towards your own insecurity.

My reference to brainwashing was not a poke at you. &nbsp;As you rightly say, I don't know you so have no idea if you have been brain washed. &nbsp;For all I know you have tried all the alternatives and decided DIR is right for what you do. &nbsp;I am not questioning the validity of what is in the DIR box, only the packaging around it.

The reference to brainwashing was quite deliberate. &nbsp;I keep reading all this DIR stuff and start to think, for instance, maybe I should use a spool. &nbsp;I then have to consciously remind myself the reasons why I don't. &nbsp;

I don't care if you have made 1 or 1000 dives I don't care if you have made 1 or 1000 posts. &nbsp;On an &nbsp;internet forum you are judged only by the sense you make pertaining to the subject at hand. &nbsp;Like I said I was not intending to upset you personally and I am sorry if I have. &nbsp;

Now can we talk about diving (interesting) or...

Regards
Matt

[Rob Evans]

Andy
Errr.. as a recent dummy spitter, I can endorse Phil's point of view.  IMHO you've come across as a balanced kind of debater in the past - so build on that.  I've frequently disagreed with your posts and you've come back fighting -respect to that cos however you countered the argument you never came back with the S word.  Matt's voiced his opinion in a way that's got your back up, but it's a reasonable argument even if some of the presentation has gone awry.
I've never perceived you as being brainwashed, or for that matter insecure - so get out there and argue the toss.
The forum would be a lesser place without you.

[Mark Davies]

<font color='#000080'>I wholeheartedly agree with the last post.

(Glad to see you're still here Rob - it would have been a poorer place without you).

And the same goes for you, Andy.

Matt has graciously held out the olive branch. How about a shake of hands and back to the business of the day?

Let's see you carry on doing what you do here best - providing reasonable and balanced comment on an important subject. Like Matt, I'm yet to be entirely won over. I look forward to more discussion on the issue and would welcome everyone's input.