do-it-right

[steve-k]

<font color='#000080'>The whole dir/gue has only just started drifting to out neck of the woods, im aware it’s been in England for a bit now, but still 9/10 of our local divers have never herd of it, let alone know what it entails

I have looked on the gue site (and others) and read with interest the forums concerning dir

What I have read so far indicates some very good sound diving skills and equipment configurations; I particularly was pleased to see the attention to basic skills

but (and there’s always a but) there does seam to be an attitude of, “it is done this way and only this way&quot; now I firmly believe there is more than 1 way to do something correctly, and if there is an intolerance to respect individual opinions, is that person better staying away from dir?

Example
was chatting with a dir diver, who told me that my double bladder wing was a big nono, as I had always thought it as a good redundancy I asked him to explain why, basically he told me I have sufficient redundancy with a normal wing and a drysute, and that it was just an extra bit of kit &quot; to go wrong&quot;, ok I said, but for example, early on in a deep dive where you are heavily over weighted due to all the gas you are carrying, your wing goes tits up there is no way your drysute will get you to the surface, and if it does then how buoyant will you be on the surface, he explained that you could drop some weight if needed then assent on your drysute, and at the surface drop the rest of your weight
Now in my opinion dropping weight can lead to all sorts of problems, especially an uncontrolled fast assent, I can just swap to the alternate bladder and ascend (or continue the dive)

Now this guy may not be preaching out of the dir bible correctly, but if we assume what he says is correct, for arguments sake, and people like myself have genuine disagreements with the views, how does this fit with the dir training etc

Another example
I watched the training video on dsmb deployment (from the dir site http://www.fifthd.com/divestore/classes/video/sbag.htm ) I am assuming from this that shallow mid water deployment is part of the training
my concerns with this would be relating to uk waters, commonly within 3/4m of leaving the wreck/seabed you have no visual reference, this can be quite disorientating, deep deployment of the dsmb gives you a reference point for your assent, I would not want to hold that real (from the video) in a 50m deployment, apart from friction burns, the speed the reel would be spinning would be scary and prone to incident, now I have a dsmb with an attached gas bottle all connected up with a reel stowed neatly in a thy pocket, its deployment is quicker, less fussy, and les in your face than that on the video, so unless someone could give me some very good reasons why not, I would stick with my own dsmb deployment arrangement


now i can understand the argument for having everyone wearing the same kit configuration, especially when the buddy principle is so high in its teaching, but to what extent? just how tolerant is dir? Does it have something to offer the strong minded individual or is it sheep only? (a bit heavy there lol) the course looks to really get to grips with your basic skills, which can only be a good thing, so please tell me my paranoia is out of line

[And]

Hi Steve

I must admit I'm a little confused. You are a rebreather diver and on a recent post have stated that you are buying an Inspiration. And now you want to know about DIR. I don't know why exactly and so I shall just attempt to answer your main points.

Well, here goes.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]but (and there’s always a but) there does seam to be an attitude of, “it is done this way and only this way&quot; now I firmly believe there is more than 1 way to do something correctly, and if there is an intolerance to respect individual opinions, is that person better staying away from dir?

Yes, you are better staying away. DIR is a system, has been developed over thousands of dives from simple reef and wreck dives to extreme deep cave dives. It is primarily developed by GUE and so individual opinion, to a large extent does go out of the window. Whilst some may balk at such a policy, I find it a lot more comforting to know that this has already been tried and tested and that it is the most successful method found rather than wondering if I'm doing it the best and most efficient way. To be honest, I've never had to ask why a particular kit config is used, it always made perfect sense. If you read JJ's book, and other resources on the web the whys are given and are, to a large extent, undisputable (IMHO of course )

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]was chatting with a dir diver, who told me that my double bladder wing was a big nono, as I had always thought it as a good redundancy I asked him to explain why, basically he told me I have sufficient redundancy with a normal wing and a drysute, and that it was just an extra bit of kit &quot; to go wrong&quot;,

Essentially that is correct. Depending how you have the bladder setup you may have another LP hose and inflator which may go wrong. There are other reasons also, perhaps the main one being that if you have both inflators hooked up and one goes runaway, how do you know which one? You will have to unhook both, dumping from both bladders at once and, if wearing a drysuit, will have to concentrate on dumping that too. Its just more work than is necessary and therefore not DIR (DIR=Less work, less stress, more enjoyment) Properly weighted you should be able to swim your gear up without buoyancy.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]so unless someone could give me some very good reasons why not, I would stick with my own dsmb deployment arrangement

This has been covered before. Look under spools in the equipment section. A spool doesn't cause friction burns and doesn't jam. I don't find it frightening, its quite fun. I find reels frightening because they can jam without warning. Jamming at max dive depth can be a nightmare.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]now i can understand the argument for having everyone wearing the same kit configuration, especially when the buddy principle is so high in its teaching, but to what extent? just how tolerant is dir? Does it have something to offer the strong minded individual or is it sheep only? (a bit heavy there lol) the course looks to really get to grips with your basic skills, which can only be a good thing, so please tell me my paranoia is out of line

DIR is intolerant. Thats the truth. The kit is defined, the gasses are defined, the procedures are defined. It is precisely because of this that it is so successful in the technical diving world. I think of myself as a stong minded individual. Started my own business from scratch and have run it successfully for 5 years. 'Sheep' as you put it, don't do that. I've never met a weak minded DIR diver. DIR Fundamentals is all about basic skills, and is taught totally differently than any other agency. The whole premise for DIR is that fact that this wasn't available from any other agency and the WKPP were getting divers who couldn't dive, yet had the C-Cards. DIR is about diving, pure and simple, totally 100%. Some accuse DIR of fanaticism, I just call it focus.

Hope that helps

Andy

[Phil Ennis]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (steve-k @ Aug. 24 2003,21:00)]The whole dir/gue has only just started drifting to out neck of the woods, im aware it’s been in England for a bit now, but still 9/10 of our local divers have never herd of it, let alone know what it entails

<font color='#0000FF'>Where are you? Your profile states you are in Oldham, is there another one somewhere in the world? &nbsp;

[steve-k]

<font color='#000080'>

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Where are you? Your profile states you are in Oldham, is there another one somewhere in the world? &nbsp;

lol &nbsp;yup we are a bit slow in oldham

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]I must admit I'm a little confused. You are a rebreather diver and on a recent post have stated that you are buying an Inspiration. And now you want to know about DIR. I don't know why exactly and so I shall just attempt to answer your main points

i have only reacently tried to understand whats involved in dir, and also only recently discoversd there attitude towards ccr, especialy the inspiration
on the net you get a lot of people who form an opinion of something without bothering to look into it first, i try not to

your post has helpt but confirmed that the dir is not for me, this said i feel it has a lot to offer, and even strokes (lol i know you hate that word) like myself can learn a lot from it, i will give the spool a go, and reserve jugment untill i do, i like the look of the low pressure hose inflaters on the hayclon lift bags/dsmb, and the fundimental course looks worthwile, if only for the basic skill improvment

atb steve from sunny, if not backwards oldham

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (wetlettuce @ Aug. 24 2003,22:21)]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Yes, you are better staying away

No dont stay away. That is the responce of the DIR clone. It does not fit so I will ignore it says the DIR man. NO says I:

Investigate all that DIR has to offer. Its a great system with great ideas. When you have finished if you find you can not blindley follow the one true path, then take what you have lernt and move on as a happy stroke.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]It is primarily developed by GUE and so individual opinion, to a large extent does go out of the window. Whilst some may balk at such a policy, I find it a lot more comforting to know that this has already been tried and tested and that it is the most successful method found rather than wondering if I'm doing it the best and most efficient way.

I personaly find that diving practices out of Dover are quite unique due to the site specific problems there. I am confident the JJ and GI3 have never dived in the shipping lanes off of Dover and would be laughed off the boat if they atempted to DIR dive the Andaman with the Sea cat blasting overhead but then I wouldent have a clue how to do a cave dive for five hours so its hourses for courses. If I were to dive Scappa Flow I would try to lern from a local knolagable diver.

I went to the Meddas Islands a few weeks ago. We (my wife and I) did a dive on Dolphin Cave. We got on the boat with Calypso Diving and pootled over to the island. The dive leader placed me with a guide and started the breafing. Next thing you know the Dive leader comes over and apolagises saying he has just seen my qualifications and dive experiance and of course I can just jump in and I dont need a guide. I replied no thanks I have never dived this place before and I will take the guided tour for the first trip.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]To be honest, I've never had to ask why a particular kit config is used, it always made perfect sense. If you read JJ's book, and other resources on the web the whys are given and are, to a large extent, undisputable (IMHO of course )

&nbsp;

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]

Essentially that is correct. Depending how you have the bladder setup you may have another LP hose and inflator which may go wrong. There are other reasons also, perhaps the main one being that if you have both inflators hooked up and one goes runaway, how do you know which one? You will have to unhook both, dumping from both bladders at once and, if wearing a drysuit, will have to concentrate on dumping that too. Its just more work than is necessary and therefore not DIR (DIR=Less work, less stress, more enjoyment) Properly weighted you should be able to swim your gear up without buoyancy.

Properly weighted divers dont exist in the deep diving feild. You are properly weighted for the twin set with 50bar in then the other two /three cylinders, tourch, reels, gas etc etc are just there to screw you up. &nbsp;Pleeeeeeeeees come and show me how to SWIM UP a flooded dry suit with twin 15s and two 10ltr stages from 50m. Dump weight?? what weight? my travel gas or my deco gas?

Twin bladder wings are a little OTT if you have a dry suit but they are esential kit for semidry or wet suit deep deco dives.

How do you know which one is run away?? Easy conect one to your travel gas which is perminantly on and conect the other to your deco gas which is switched off. Then switch the travel gas off when you switch to deco mix.

Dry suits have auto dumps and you dont have to think about dumping them, they are errrrrr automatic.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]This has been covered before. Look under spools in the equipment section. A spool doesn't cause friction burns and doesn't jam. I don't find it frightening, its quite fun. I find reels frightening because they can jam without warning. Jamming at max dive depth can be a nightmare.

Hmmmmmmmmmm. Dont like spools, never have. But that said it does highlight one of the fundimental problems with DIR. They advocate spools and shalow deployment of same preferabley from the shalow deco stop (6m). This method of diving just wont work in the conditions off of Dover and is a good example of where the DIR system's lack of flexabuility fails under UK conditions. &nbsp;

That said a couple of the divers in my regular group are DIR folowers and they just compromise for the conditions at Dover. I am sure GI3 would have them strung up but I think it makes them compitent divers.

[quote]DIR is intolerant. Thats the truth. The kit is defined, the gasses are defined, the procedures are defined. It is precisely because of this that it is so successful in the technical diving world. I think of myself as a stong minded individual. Started my own business from scratch and have run it successfully for 5 years. 'Sheep' as you put it, don't do that. I've never met a weak minded DIR diver. DIR Fundamentals is all about basic skills, and is taught totally differently than any other agency. The whole premise for DIR is that fact that this wasn't available from any other agency and the WKPP were getting divers who couldn't dive, yet had the C-Cards. DIR is about diving, pure and simple, totally 100%. Some accuse DIR of fanaticism, I just call it focus./QUOTE]


I like Andy, he is commited to DIR and fights the courner every time. I respect his dedication and I am sure he is going to be a very good diver if he is not one already. I hope that we are still in touch in about three or four years time when he has got into the deep stuff and has dived a bit more extensively arround the UK. I wonder if he will be less DIR or I will be more DIR by that time.

I will always be found on this site slagging DIR, but if someone asked me to recommend a holistic system for diving or a training rageim I would have to say that DIR is the best on offer. I am personaly trying to resist asymilation but all that black gear looks realy sexy &nbsp; &nbsp;Mind you if you watch Star Track you will know that the Borg are always saying &quot;we will adapt&quot; Its a pity the DIR boys dont follow that ideal.

ATB

Mark Chase

[steve-k]

<font color='#000080'>

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Hmmmmmmmmmm. Dont like spools, never have. But that said it does highlight one of the fundimental problems with DIR. They advocate spools and shalow deployment of same preferabley from the shalow deco stop (6m). This method of diving just wont work in the conditions off of Dover and is a good example of where the DIR system's lack of flexabuility fails under UK conditions

on one particular dive with a short window we drifted well over a mile during 40mins of deco, now i dont know about you (WL) but i want my blob up as i leave the wreck:O

[kramynot2000]

I've taken the Fundamentals course and dive with others who have also and are signed up for the new Rec Triox looking toward Tech 1. &nbsp;What I've found is that while the whole DIR system seems rigid, many who have taken GUE courses are flexible and dive with others who may not be totally DIR compliant. &nbsp;A couple of weekends ago we were diving with a paraplegic who definitely wasn't DIR, but we dove with him and had a great time.

My thoughts are that it is great to take all the courses you can from all different agencies... but keep an open mind. &nbsp;Many things DIR I agree with and use, but there are a few items I question, so...

Anyway, the main point is to have fun, so that's what I'm doing!

Tony

[Dominic]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ] Pleeeeeeeeees come and show me how to SWIM UP a flooded dry suit with twin 15s and two 10ltr stages from 50m.

At a guess, the argument would be that if it happens at the start of the dive, you can dump the stages as you haven't incurred enough deco to need them, and if it happens at the end, you've already used up the weight of the back gas.
Alternatively, purge the stages till they're empty, and they become a source of buoyancy

[Spike Jackson]

I'd go along with Mark Chase there. I DO want to learn from the DIR boys, a lot of their techniques sound great.
I don't want to be told its &quot;My way or the high-way&quot; so that's why I have not signed up for the fundamentals course. I don't believe that one system works for every single dive.
I have looked at the DIS-Uk website, have not contacted them yet but think that might be the way forward for me. They sound more tolerant and open to suggestion.

[kramynot2000]

Spike,

When I took the fundamentals course from Mike Kane and Tamara McKinney, it definitely was not the &quot;my way or the highway&quot; course. &nbsp;Mike is a great guy, tells you what the agency thinks and why, and you make your own decision. &nbsp;I took the course back in the &quot;old&quot; days (January) when you didn't have a backplate and wing, all you had to have was a long hose. &nbsp;So, I was using my Ranger BC with BC integrated alternate regulator. &nbsp;We talked about how loose the BC was and how a BP/Wing setup was more stable. &nbsp;We talked about how the integrated alternate made it more difficult to ascend if I had it in my mouth, etc. &nbsp;But then the decision was left up to me.

I'd suggest just what Mark said, take the course and learn, but again, keep an open mind.

Tony