DIR Fundamentals - changes afoot!

[Narked@50]

Originally Posted by Lou

So should GUE change to accommodate those students? Or should some people just admit they aren't who GUE are aiming at?

If only it were that simple.

I think it's a bit of both, though I'm not going to make a fool of myself by trying to give the changes here chapter and verse, but if you consider these examples, you'll see my point:

1. GUE do not condone compresable neoprean suits due to changes in bouyancy, but thousands of UK divers use them and are quite happy with the performance, this does not make them ill informed or bad divers.

2. GUE specify a certain type (or characteristic) of undersuit. The theory being that it retains heat better after several hours of wet exposure. This is important if you are hours inside a cave, but most UK divers I know (several being DIR), have no intention to be in that position.

So what I am trying to get across, is that people who fit into the above categories are currently procluded from DIR by defination, but may be able to learn lots if they are allowed access to training.

I'll leave it at that, as it's all too easy to start sounding like I'm having a go at DIR, when in fact as I said earlier, many of the principals I agree with, I'm just not convinced that they are ALL appropriate to everyone who may want to, or be, DIR.

James

[Bardo]

Originally Posted by Narked@50

So what I am trying to get across, is that people who fit into the above categories are currently procluded from DIR by defination, but may be able to learn lots if they are allowed access to training.

That's bollox mate - I know of at least one GUE instructor intern who uses a weezle undersuit which is definately not GI3-friendly. Is he being 'procluded'? This is just the sort of ill-informed garbage that makes me chuckle...

[And]

The only people I know who have the authority, experience and knowledge to decide if you are or are not allowed to take a GUE course are the GUE instructors.

There is nothing about requiring a membrane suit or a DUI undersuit in any of the course prerequisites.

GUE is open to all, the GUE instructors have gear you can rent/borrow if you do not wish to change all your kit to have a go. I can see virtually no barriers to taking a DIRF course.

DIR, as a concept, philosophy, team based approach, kind of goes beyond where GUE goes and some would say it is less rigid in some areas, but more rigid in others, depending on the team, dive type, location etc.

Andy

[SoggyFox]

Would this recreational pass in fundamentals be similar to a pass in the upcoming GUE novice course? After the novice course would you need further training/assessment to go onto Tech1 etc. ie number of qualifying dives further improvement of some skills,would a novice be trained straight onto twins (doubtful) i assume they'd be given a recreational pass and time to go on and try out twins before progressing.

i'll admit my limited knowledge in these matters and its only what i've picked up from these boards.

[And]

I suspect this is one of the reasons for the change, to manage the progression better.

It would seem logical that you take the GUE OW course, and then, should you want to progress to a twinset you may be required to do the DIRFTech, or perhaps bridge the gap with the recTriox course.

We'll have to wait and see I guess.

Andy

[MattS]

DIR, as a concept, philosophy, team based approach,

Really? I thought it was the amalgamation of those principles into a holistic discipline.

kind of goes beyond where GUE goes and some would say it is less rigid in some areas, but more rigid in others, depending on the team, dive type, location

I seem to recall that the team, dive type, location was immaterial as far as DIR was concerned.

I am sure the move will be good for GUE and those that wish to dive with GUE trained divers. It looks like a dilution of the original DIR message to me though. One very small step towards giving people what they want rather than what they need.

[And]

If you were to say that WKPP were DIR divers (who wouldn't? ) then it is obvious that their disciplines are a little more exacting than a GUE DIRF course, not only in terms of drysuits and undersuits, but in virtually every piece of equipment and every procedure. In order to even dive with the WKPP you would need to have taken the Cave II course from GUE. Then your learning starts The EKPP is the same to a lesser extent.

A DIRF course is a basic course, and therefore is not quite as exacting as enrolling in the WKPP for example. If you were to take a DIRF course in January in the UK you would perhaps wear drygloves. Obviously you wouldn't need them in Florida. There are differences depending on certain criteria. Fundamental differences no, small differences yes.

I think it would be fair to say that some of the 'DIR' teams which operate on various projects treat the GUE stuff as 'basic training'.

Andy

[turbanator]

When I did Cave 1, there was no DIR-F.
There was the cave route and the tech route.
It was apparently found the a lot of the students' time was wasted teaching them basic skills instead of what they had come along to learn, hence, in my understanding, the introduction of DIR-F.

Fortunately we passed Cave-1, so I guess that we were ready.

I did not really see the introduction of DIR-F as 'Dumbing-down', it's just that we went to the course, having dived for 5 years or so in the UK, in Drysuits, Tech Nitrox or Tmx trained (can't remember now) having learnt what we knew of DIR from the 'net.
Other student presenting themselves for the course had apparenly been, for example, experienced AOWs.
Not to take anything away from them, but the conditions that we had dived in prepared us for Cave 1 (which I primarily did for wreck penetration), whereas their experience was not quite as wide.

So it was a waste of their money and their and the instructor's time to sign on for Cave 1.

DIR-F gave everyone a common foundation to progress to Tech or Cave.
Now there will be people who don't want to progress to Cave or Tech, but feel that DIR principles are good for them, this development seems good.

I don't see it as 'dumbing-down' after all Tech 1 and Cave 1 are still as hard as they were, it just means that the training is a bit more progressive.

r
Paul
ps not sure if I'd pass a DIR-F

[Narked@50]

Originally Posted by Bardo

That's bollox mate - I know of at least one GUE instructor intern who uses a weezle undersuit which is definately not GI3-friendly. Is he being 'procluded'? This is just the sort of ill-informed garbage that makes me chuckle...

Sorry you disagree Bardo, I didn't realise my post could offend anyone.

I don't expect everyone to see my point, just consider it politely.

You have however unwittingly highlighted my point. I am sure your friend is a great diver, and he uses a weezle, which you quite rightly point out is not GUE aproved, but worn by many UK DIR divers none the less. I agree with this, but it's an example of bending the rules to suit the situation, something DIR is not good at currently. (And that's not a pop at it.)

So if you can change the undersuit? why not the mixes?, the cylinder type?, use posidon regs? The point is, that you stop being DIR, as you are no longer the same as the team, and I thought it was all about the team?

Fundies is no big deal for equipment, I appologise if my post infered it was, but equipment is a key part of DIR if you wish to progress within the ranks, I'd like to see someone turn up for cave1 with "normal" recreational scuba gear from someone like Mares, do you think he would be allowd to do the course? I don't.

Once again I will openly say: I have a great deal of respect for most DIR trained divers, and admire the time and effort they put into their training, I just don't agree with all of it, so can never be DIR. That said, I have no problem with nicking the good bits and leaving the stuff I don't like.

James

[Brian of Aquanauts]

Originally Posted by Narked@50

Sorry you disagree Bardo, I didn't realise my post could offend anyone.

I don't expect everyone to see my point, just consider it politely.

So if you can change the undersuit? why not the mixes?, the cylinder type?, use posidon regs? The point is, that you stop being DIR, as you are no longer the same as the team, and I thought it was all about the team?

Have you seen And's sig.... "it's all bollox" he wasn't really being rude, just chuckling

But just because GI3 doesn't like something doesn't make it non DIR...

There are certain requirements for GUE, single piece harness, twins in overhead, 30m max on nitrox etc... but tri-lam suits and non-weezles aren't part of it. As long as you can reach your valves then it's fine.

Hope that helps.

Brian