Confessions Of A DIR Virgin

[resting rifleman]

Originally Posted by Garf

Looks like you were just in time Davey, cos ere we go...

let's not!

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Garf

Looks like you were just in time Davey, cos ere we go...

Never mind Garf, you'll be ok as you left your VR3 at home to avoid upsetting the headmistress

Ian

[Moz]

Ian,
Well I only posted my experience, the staff I trained with are great, I would recommend to anyone
I did send my comments to PADI through the feedback e-mail .
If you wish to continue this discussion then please PM me, I will give you more details

I do not wish to start another row online

David

[David]

Originally Posted by Moz

Ian,
If you wish to continue this discussion then please PM me, I will give you more details
David

I dont need more details

hear is my take on it. ALL of the training agency's have faults. But Padi
gets people in the water quickest. You then need to find away of learning
the skills you realy need to dive.
HGV, motor cars , bikes its all the same you get taught a very small amout to pass a test then you need to learn how to do it for real.

David

ps GF advanced course was same just an exchange of money.

[Lou]

Originally Posted by Moz

Ian,
Well I only posted my experience, the staff I trained with are great, I would recommend to anyone
I did send my comments to PADI through the feedback e-mail .
If you wish to continue this discussion then please PM me, I will give you more details

I do not wish to start another row online

David

Sorry, I would say that from your description the staff you trained with were not "great". It is down to them to uphold the standards and if you missed your nav by 10m then they should have insisted you did it again until you were competent. If they did not that is not the fault of PADI but the fault of the outfit you trained with.

When I did my PADI OW I had an instructor that made us repeat each skill until we had all mastered it. On one day this took 10 hours in the pool just doing a couple of the skills as some people had difficulty. The horizontal CESA in particular caused difficulty and had to be repeated by a couple of folk 7 or 8 times.

That is, as far as I am aware, the PADI standard - and if you don't do it you keep going until you can - or you fail. If you go to a school that would rather you finished all the skills in the time allowed for it, no matter what your standard then you should complain to them and report them - not just accept your qualification and then walk away to slate PADI elsewhere.

Lou

[Miss Roxy Chablis]

OK Ian lets nip this you and me thing in the bud before it gets silly. You're sore because I gave you a hard time on the DIRX forum because I believed was you joining the forum purely to make mischief and troll posts. I still believe this is the case. In my ignorance I believe DIR / GUE to be the finest technical diving agency in the world, because no-one up to now has given me any solid reasons to think otherwise. You currently use a Boris and no doubt have been trained by one of Kevin Gurr's guys. It is pretty well known that Gurr and GI3 and the corresponding camps dislike each other intensely. No doubt you in your ignorance you believe passionately in the route you're going down because again no-one has shown you any better. Everyone has an agenda. The "truth" doesn't exist - its an illusion - just ignorance backed by conviction - probably in your case a lot less ignorance than me - but ignorance nonetheless: once again - "you don't know what you don't know"

We're all very brave on the internet, everyone swings their d*ck around and gets carried away. I'm guiltier than most. The reality is that we both share a common love of this fantastic sport and if we met each other - we'd probably dive together and get along just fine - I'd certainly learn a loads from you - and who knows - you may even learn a bit from me. Falling out with someone you don't know on the Internet is like two bald men fighting over a comb - totally pointless. Like Andy Carroll says "It's all bollox"

PADI does more than anyone to bring people to this sport that we all love so much. In my opinion the OW course is an excellent introduction to diving. In common with most diving agencies PADI was born and its practices were refined in and around the southern US coast, the Caribbean and Mexico where the viz, current, water temperature and general diving conditions are pretty idyllic and easy on a novice diver. UK coastal diving conditions are amongst the most challenging in the world and what works "over there" does not, I believe, adequately prepare people for diving "over here".

By dive nine I was PADI "Advanced Open Water" having done both OW and AOW in the the balmy conditions of the Red Sea . On returning home, I could dive, by implication, with someone of similar (in)experience to 30m on wrecks such as The Kyarra, JEL, M2, The Scylla: in January, with zero viz, in freezing cold water and a strong current. No-one had shown me how to use a DSMB, no-one had trained me for Nitrox, no routine practicing of OOA or any other high stress emergency situations.

By dive fourteen, I was PADI "Rescue Diver". I was one of the best in the class - everyone said it. In a muddy lake, in 6m of water. One of the other guys who passed was about 22 stone and was out of breath just putting a BCD on his back on dry land. With the caveat that you should never place yourself at unacceptable risk rescuing someone else - I was, by implication, now capable of rescuing people who got into trouble. I could barely even control my own buoyancy.

The Divemaster course is much more challenging and I continue to learn. I'm now a competent diver and enjoying helping OW students to discover what has given me so much pleasure.

Some of the problem lies in terminology: "Adventures In Diving", "Self Rescue, Diving Under Stress & First Aid For Diving" and "Advanced Diver" don't sound as sexy as "Advanced Open Water" "Rescue Diver" and "Divemaster". They give people a false sense of their own ability and raise peoples confidence way beyond their talent without them knowing any better. Like the man said: "Marketing men and advertising people are Satan's little helpers and the destroyers of everything that's good"

Some of it lies in the whole premise that "Diving Is For Everyone". By all means let everyone try it - but it's not for everyone at all. It's not Sudoku with aqualungs - it's a highly dangerous activity that requires a degree of physical and mental agility and an appropriate mindset. I'm sure as an Instructor yourself - you've passed people who have met the appropriate standard - but who are unlikely to ever be any good and who you wouldn't let buddy up with one of your loved ones in a million years. These people may be OK for an occassional holiday bimble around a tropical reef with supervision - but the system that allows them to endanger themselves and worse others in UK conditions without modifying it's training recommendations to suit the local conditions needs to take a long hard look at itself.

If, when I have finished the DM course, I do not feel I can reconcile my objections with the PADI ideology, then I will not take up my professional status with its inherent obligations. In the mean time I continue to handle myself with the utmost professionalism in the company of students, and I air my objections within the confines of this board. Any organisation that cannot handle healthy debate about it's practices and possible shortcomings -does not deserve to thrive and survive and I would not want to be a part of it.

I wish you all the best and safe diving

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Howard Payne

In my ignorance I believe DIR / GUE to be the finest technical diving agency in the world, because no-one up to now has given me any solid reasons to think otherwise.

Howard,

What has lead you to this conclusion? What experience do you have of other technical diving agencies that you can compare with and arrive at this conclusion, or is it via word of mouth and the written word? Genuine question, not trolling.

From a personal point of view, having gone down the TDI route, I don't think I could make such a statement without having experience of the various agencies I would wish to compare.

[Phoenix]

Originally posted by Howard Payne, my comments in red.

OK Ian lets nip this you and me thing in the bud before it gets silly. You're sore because I gave you a hard time on the DIRX forum because I believed was you joining the forum purely to make mischief and troll posts. I still believe this is the case.

II – Hmmm, not exactly designed to nip anything in the bud I would suggest

In my ignorance I believe DIR / GUE to be the finest technical diving agency in the world,

II – You said it

because no-one up to now has given me any solid reasons to think otherwise. You currently use a Boris and no doubt have been trained by one of Kevin Gurr's guys. It is pretty well known that Gurr and GI3 and the corresponding camps dislike each other intensely.

II – I was fortunate enough to train with Alan Wright, Phill Short & Kevin himself, both Phill and Kevin have spent time talking with JJ, have you? They certainly didn’t say anything to infer an intense dislike

No doubt you in your ignorance you believe passionately in the route you're going down because again no-one has shown you any better.

II – I have had training from PADI, TDI, IANTD, IART, a reasonable variety, yours is just PADI so far? Yet you say that no-one has shown me any better…hmm

Everyone has an agenda. The "truth" doesn't exist - its an illusion - just ignorance backed by conviction - probably in your case a lot less ignorance than me - but ignorance nonetheless: once again - "you don't know what you don't know"

We're all very brave on the internet, everyone swings their d*ck around and gets carried away. I'm guiltier than most. The reality is that we both share a common love of this fantastic sport and if we met each other - we'd probably dive together and get along just fine - I'd certainly learn a loads from you - and who knows - you may even learn a bit from me. Falling out with someone you don't know on the Internet is like two bald men fighting over a comb - totally pointless. Like Andy Carroll says "It's all bollox"

PADI does more than anyone to bring people to this sport that we all love so much. In my opinion the OW course is an excellent introduction to diving. In common with most diving agencies PADI was born and its practices were refined in and around the southern US coast, the Caribbean and Mexico where the viz, current, water temperature and general diving conditions are pretty idyllic and easy on a novice diver. UK coastal diving conditions are amongst the most challenging in the world and what works "over there" does not, I believe, adequately prepare people for diving "over here".

II – PADI Instructors are allowed to make necessary additions to reflect local conditions, eg DSMB use for the UK

By dive nine I was PADI "Advanced Open Water" having done both OW and AOW in the the balmy conditions of the Red Sea . On returning home, I could dive, by implication, with someone of similar (in)experience to 30m on wrecks such as The Kyarra, JEL, M2, The Scylla: in January, with zero viz, in freezing cold water and a strong current. No-one had shown me how to use a DSMB, no-one had trained me for Nitrox, no routine practicing of OOA or any other high stress emergency situations.

II – See above

By dive fourteen, I was PADI "Rescue Diver". I was one of the best in the class - everyone said it. In a muddy lake, in 6m of water. One of the other guys who passed was about 22 stone and was out of breath just putting a BCD on his back on dry land. With the caveat that you should never place yourself at unacceptable risk rescuing someone else - I was, by implication, now capable of rescuing people who got into trouble. I could barely even control my own buoyancy.

The Divemaster course is much more challenging and I continue to learn. I'm now a competent diver and enjoying helping OW students to discover what has given me so much pleasure.

Some of the problem lies in terminology: "Adventures In Diving", "Self Rescue, Diving Under Stress & First Aid For Diving" and "Advanced Diver" don't sound as sexy as "Advanced Open Water" "Rescue Diver" and "Divemaster". They give people a false sense of their own ability and raise peoples confidence way beyond their talent without them knowing any better. Like the man said: "Marketing men and advertising people are Satan's little helpers and the destroyers of everything that's good"

Some of it lies in the whole premise that "Diving Is For Everyone". By all means let everyone try it - but it's not for everyone at all. It's not Sudoku with aqualungs - it's a highly dangerous activity that requires a degree of physical and mental agility and an appropriate mindset. I'm sure as an Instructor yourself - you've passed people who have met the appropriate standard - but who are unlikely to ever be any good and who you wouldn't let buddy up with one of your loved ones in a million years. These people may be OK for an occassional holiday bimble around a tropical reef with supervision - but the system that allows them to endanger themselves and worse others in UK conditions without modifying it's training recommendations to suit the local conditions needs to take a long hard look at itself.

If, when I have finished the DM course, I do not feel I can reconcile my objections with the PADI ideology, then I will not take up my professional status with its inherent obligations. In the mean time I continue to handle myself with the utmost professionalism in the company of students, and I air my objections within the confines of this board. Any organisation that cannot handle healthy debate about it's practices and possible shortcomings -does not deserve to thrive and survive and I would not want to be a part of it.

II – I’m sorry Howard, as I see it your opening post made unprofessional comments about PADI, fine by a non-member but not good from someone who wants to be a Pro member.

I wish you all the best and safe diving

II - Likewise



Howard, IMO you are just another evangelical newbie DIR diver who has swallowed the whole philosophy without having arrived at the decisions from your own judgement. Good luck with your training but you will have to accept that we're not all going to massage your ego and slap your backs all the time.

Ian

[Justin Owen]

Originally Posted by Howard Payne

It gets a lot of flack from the diving community in general

-From the "outside in" its seems a bit anal and pedantic and like no-ones having any fun!

-The DIR bar is set very high - if you've passed - you've really earnt it! Or perhaps more correctly - everyone else's is set too low (I have no direct experience of BSAC - I'm sure they're a bit better than PADI but probably not a lot)

With all due respect if you've no direct experience of it (BSAC) then maybe you shouldn't make those comments? It's exactly those comments that get peoples backs up and result in your first two points.

The BSAC system is ideal for learning to dive in the UK, it's about safe, assured progression with high quality training. The skill development courses increase your skills as your diving progresses - O2 Admin, Boat Handling, Diver Cox'n, Chartwork, Dive Planning and Marshalling... All skills relevant and essential if planning and running dives in UK conditions, esp if using your own boats - and you get to practice these skills in a club environment.

Joining my club was the best thing I ever did in relation to my diving.

[Lazlo]

Firstly to Howard - good post. I found it interesting and your enthusiasm, and that of others who have also had DIR "try dives" makes me wish I could do one too at some point. Nice one-liners too - loved the Helsinki gag.

But honestly, comments like "killing a lot of UK divers" is bound to get a reaction. As an OWSI myself, I feel justified in taking exception to that. The PADI standards are very clear, you must demonstrate mastery in every skill before progressing on to the next. The teaching system is IMO excellent. Key points are hammered home in a variety of formats, repeated again and again.

The "Advanced" course does not make you an "advanced" diver - whatever that means. A Rescue diver is not as advanced as a DM, a DM is not as advanced as a technical diving instructor with 20 years experience. And so on. The main lesson I took from my Rescue course was to know my own limits. I was physically exhausted by the experience, and so I knew what I would be capable of if it came to it. No point in creating a second victim and all that. Also a great part of the course does not actually require physical effort - accident prevention is better than accident management.

Advanced, Rescue, Divemaster: what's in a name anyway? The one thing these particular names do is get people encouraged to do more training, and thereby make themselves better divers. This is a good thing surely? Oh and by the way, no PADI course I have ever done made me think I was an expert. Quite the opposite. The Wreck spec for example made me much more cautious about penetrations than I had been previously.

The PADI system works very well indeed, when the instructors and schools apply it properly - as they were taught to do so on the IDC. All necessary skills are included, mastery is a requirement - not an option, and is it flexible enough to allow extra tuition on the basis of local conditions e.g. SMB etc.

Which UK divers have PADI killed? Where are the statistics for this? Why are you training as a DM for an organisation that kills people (in your opinion)?

-----

Oh and Clare - you sound like a right good egg. I would love for you to demonstrate your talents for me Unfortunately I live a bit far away. Does anybody know of any other options nearer to home?