scubapro regs

[StephenT]

now this will sound stupid .

Scubapro have changed the r290 + r390 to r295 and r395 . Are these still DIR approved regulators? since i'm buying tomorrow i don't want to go and do something stupid by buying new versions that have changes making them none dir compatible.

[tonhil]

I don't know these regs - useful aren't I?

I am guessing that the first stages will be the same as forever - which ones are (or were) they 'cos I think that the flow through piston type is the preferred DIR version. (these piston types are DIR however there is an old failure story about them that it just horrifying beyond belief so it also has to be your decision as well as DIR)

With respect to the second stages it should be no big deal to check. Can you remove the "hubcap" cover without a million bits running all over the place and hence clean out any muck? They will probably have a little pin to stop the cover from unscrewing inadvertently - some say that that pin should be discarded to make them DIR.

It should be all OK but why rush? Wait until someone who knows and has one in their hand can give you a definitive answer.

[RichW]

Hi Stephen

We tend to avoid recommending "new models" until they have a few years of use in the field behind them. I can't find a lot of info on these new second stages, so have no idea how they perform.

If you can get hold of the older 390's then I'd say stick with these, as we know they work!

Let me know if you want any more help...

Rich

[Brian of Aquanauts]

These models are much the same as the previous except the styling, and the more easily reversible nature. They come apart the same way. The R range was always reversible anyway.

The only negative comment i have is that they've put a hard plastic hose protector on the second stage end and it's really hard to remove (it takes about 5 minutes with lots of groaning)

[gibbon]

Originally Posted by tonhil

I am guessing that the first stages will be the same as forever - which ones are (or were) they 'cos I think that the flow through piston type is the preferred DIR version. (these piston types are DIR however there is an old failure story about them that it just horrifying beyond belief so it also has to be your decision as well as DIR)

SO that would be the the A-Clamp inducing failiure of the body on some Mk20 1st stages due to the A-Clamp retainer being over torqued and the design being flawed? Certainly something worth checking if you have an old A-Clamp Mk20 and it has been serviced without regard of advice from ScubaPro and the free replacement A-Clamp retainer. Heres a good photo of what happened to some Mk20s that had the old A-Clamp retainer http://www.ndc.noaa.gov/pdfs/sb05-01.pdf

Or are you refering to Titatnium Mk20UL being used for O2.. (only in america lol) http://www.nitroxdiver.com/Library/explode.html

Surely you cannot buy a Mk20 new with the latest 2nd stages attached? Surely it would be the updated MK25 which never had the probematic A-Clamp retainers.

Or is there another issue that we should be aware of?

GUE use DIN regs so this would ALL be irrelevant, as I dont dive DIR perhaps someone else would care to comment - so much crap on tinternet - but some good photos

What RichW said makes a lot of sense, you dont want to be part of the ScubaPro testing team - stick with the older reg bodies that are tried and tested.

[StephenT]

For someone who lives 10 minutes walk from deepblue i dont buy much from them :>. I've decided to try and get some apex regs from an entire different company, which seems to do the older atx's compared to the newer xtx's.

[fatone]

The photos are good, and drive the point home, but i am confussed.
The MK20 and the newer MK25 both use the same body and A clamp yoke retainer part No. 10700101 & 10103115 respectivly, so it should not matter which you have as long as it's had the right torque applied ?

[gibbon]

Originally Posted by StephenT

For someone who lives 10 minutes walk from deepblue i dont buy much from them :>. I've decided to try and get some apex regs from an entire different company, which seems to do the older atx's compared to the newer xtx's.

Stephen,
As you asked this in the DIR forum, you would presumably be using DIN so there is no issue with either MK25 or if you went 2nd hand a MK20 that has always been in DIN config.

The issue was infered in another post [tonhil] with out references so I was simply trying to clear that up. edit: [tonhil] was refering to another failiure mode due to over torquing during service causing the swivel to come off later during use... (presumably the swivel retainer 105 00 104).

Personally I think that the MK20/MK25 are excellent regs, there are some issues with freeflow in cold water reported, however I have never suffered this and when using twins in cold water I dive with 1 diaphragm and 1 piston 1st stage just incase of this.

The Mk20/Mk25 out perform any other reg on the planet if your requirements are quantity of gas flow available, and response time for the intermediate pressure.

I think that SP make excellent regulators and would hate to think that you were put off by my post that was not the intention. One was an American using a titanium reg for O2 - an instructor no less the other is a well defined issue that you will not suffer from as you are not looking to buy an old Mk20 A-clamp reg.

From your posts, you are early in your dive career, I suggest that you get yourself a cheap Mk2+ and R290/390 in DIN and get a DIN converter so that you can use it anywhere. This will limit your spending and give you a very reliable base from which you can build the rest of your kit around. Given that you are also expressing an interest in tech diving, if you do take that path then the Mk2+ will be an ideal stage reg going forwards. If you decide not to go technical then the Mk2+ will do everything you need it to within recreational limits, two divers can happily breathe from a Mk2+ below 40m, but you will be aware when the tank pressure gets below 50bar which in my opinion is seldom a bad thing.

I primarily use SP regs, what ever brand you choose, I suggest that you continue to stick with that brand, the main reason being the simplification of getting parts/service fom one manufacturer - with SP that is possible anywhere in the world. Like everyone else I support the kit that I use.

Originally Posted by fatone

The photos are good, and drive the point home, but i am confussed.
The MK20 and the newer MK25 both use the same body and A clamp yoke retainer part No. 10700101 & 10103115 respectivly, so it should not matter which you have as long as it's had the right torque applied ?

The old retainer did place a force that "should be ok" on the body.. evidently this did not stand upto the analysis of statistics in the real world.
The old retainer was 10-400-104 and had a 45 degree slope on it at the top of the thread. You are looking at newer diagrams, I have some old diagrams showing the old part if you are interested. (PM me)

No Mk25s had the old retainer, it is compatible as most other parts are in the Mk10+/Mk20/Mk25.

Below is the american cheesemail sent out by SP to dealers last year.

Dear Authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC Dealer,
Please note the attached correspondence. The first letter is communication to you,
our dealer and the second is information we will be giving out to consumers as
they call in regarding the MK 20 First Stage Regulator.
© 2005 by Johnson Outdoors Inc.
MK20 Yoke / DIN Service Bulletin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC Dealer,
This is a communication to you, our dealers, to inform you we are in the preliminary stages of an upgrade program for the MK20 first stage regulators.
Recently, we were notified that a diver had reported a crack in and around the body of a MK20 first stage regulator where the yoke retainer seats against the internal body of the regulator. We immediately conducted an internal review utilizing our SCUBAPRO ® Engineering Team. Simultaneously, we asked the independent experts at Exponent Failure Analysis Associates to determine the root cause. Exponent is a leading failure analysis consultancy with technical expertise spanning a wide range of scientific and engineering disciplines.
Exponent has completed an extensive and comprehensive independent review and analysis of the MK20 design and materials, as well as detailed inspection and analysis of both the failed unit and properly working MK20s. They determined the crack occurred due to a combination over torque and exposure to an underwater environment. The crack may be initiated if exposed to over torquing and over time, a larger crack may develop when exposed to harsh environmental conditions and, in a small number of cases cause a failure.
As a result of these findings, SCUBAPRO’s engineering staff and Exponent both recommend that all MK20s be updated with Universal Yoke Retainer (PN 10.103.115). This retainer transfers the mechanical load to the yoke retainer and not the body. The upgrade to this Universal Yoke Retainer and proper torque settings have been found to eliminate the stress placed on the body of the regulator at the location of observed cracking. This update, available in both Yoke and DIN, will soon be available to you to so that you may update your customer’s MK20 first stages. We will be mailing each Authorized Dealer more correspondence on this program within the next week.
In closing, we work hard to earn the trust of you and your customers every day, and know that our reputation is based on what we do, not what we say we will do. That is why when we first learned of a problem, even though it involved a product no longer produced or sold, we took responsibility and immediate action. At SCUBAPRO diver safety comes first.
Please feel free to contact your Sales Representative or our Technical Services Department if you have any further questions.
SCUBAPRO UWATEC
North America
© 2005 by Johnson Outdoors Inc.
SCUBAPRO MK20 First Stage Communication
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for contacting us regarding the SCUBAPRO MK20 First Stage Regulator. We certainly appreciate the opportunity to provide additional information and clarification on this matter.
Since 1996, tens of thousands of MK20 first stage regulators have been used by divers under rigorous conditions in both warm and cold water. When we first learned that a diver had reported a crack in and around the yoke thread area of a MK20, we immediately conducted an internal review utilizing our SCUBAPRO® Engineering Team. Simultaneously we asked the independent experts at Exponent Failure Analysis Associates to determine the root cause. Exponent is a leading failure analysis consultancy with technical expertise spanning a wide range of scientific and engineering disciplines.
Exponent has completed an extensive and comprehensive independent review and analysis of the MK20 design and materials, as well as detailed inspection and analysis of both the failed unit and properly working MK20s. They determined the crack occurred due to a combination over torque and exposure to an underwater environment. The crack may be initiated if exposed to over torquing and over time, a larger crack may develop when exposed to harsh environmental conditions and, in a small number of cases cause a failure.
As a result of these findings, SCUBAPRO recommends that all MK20s be updated with Universal Yoke Retainer (part number 10.103.115). This retainer transfers the mechanical load to the yoke retainer and not the body. This Universal Yoke Retainer and proper torque settings have been found to eliminate the stress placed on the body of the regulator at the location of observed cracking. This retainer will soon be available, free of charge, at an Authorized SCUBAPRO Dealer. A Dealer can be located via our website www.scubapro.com or by calling 619-402-1023.
In closing, we work hard to earn the trust of our customers every day, and know that our reputation is based on what we do, not what we say we will do. That is why when we first learned of a problem, even though it involved a product no longer produced or sold, we took responsibility and immediate action. At SCUBAPRO diver safety comes first.
Please feel free to contact your local Authorized SCUBAPRO UWATEC Dealer or SCUBAPRO UWATEC if you have any further questions.
SCUBAPRO UWATEC
North America


PS... If anyone wants to sell/get rid of their Mk20 regs (DIN prefered) drop me a PM

Jon

[Reikimaster]

Originally Posted by Brian of Aquanauts

hard plastic hose protector on the second stage end and it's really hard to remove (it takes about 5 minutes with lots of groaning)

does the old trick of moving it to the middle of the hose and dipping in warm water for a bit help these ones?

[Brian of Aquanauts]

hmmm... will try that with my next set. Good idea.

BTW it took 5 mins just to move that damn protector just 1/4inch back, enough to unscrew the damn thing to display in our shiney nice thing cabinet.

As far as I can see they're the same as the old ones, just look a bit more modern + that damn plastic hose protector.