Team diving - always??

[MattS]

2) Other divers/agencies and some trainers adopt the attitude that the individual diver plans the dive with his own gas and none for his buddy. in the event of the budyy losing gas for some reason its a sort of hard luck scenario. No equipment share takes place, each diver carries his own requirements for smb and masks etc.

Hmmmm. No I don't think so.

If you plan to be redundant so that you can get yourself out of trouble, you have gas/equipment that can be donated to a team member. I maintain a reserve in backgas and deco gas which is sufficient to get me or my team mate out of trouble. We are both redundant so it will take more than a single failure to screw us both up. Strict team planning requires gas matching, although in the real World this often translates to diving with someone that has a similar breathing rate.

[And]

Originally Posted by MATTBIN

1) DIR/GUE always plan to assist each other in a 'situation' in particular they plan for some lost gas on deep dives and ensure that between the team any individual who loses gas should be able to still do a proper deco by utilising the extra gas carried by the rest of the team. Equipment required for the dive is carried by the team and is a shared load i.e. no of smb's, spare masks etc.

Have I got that correct??
Matt

The 'minimum' gas reserves are calculated as enough gas for you to get yourself and one buddy to the next source of gas, which may be a deco gas, but may also be a staged bottle or safety bottle. Mostly we would work on more than minimum, like keeping backgas as a reserve and diving stages for example.

The rest of the resources are just balanced between the tasks required. If you know there are three jumps in the plan then it makes sense for each team member to carry one jump spool each (with perhaps one guy carrying two) and take it in turns to do the jumps, rather than every diver carrying three jump spools, which you know you just don't need.

In a situation where you are ascending to your switch and shooting one bag between three then you only need three bags between the team, but if you must send up a bag each then you may have two bags each. Its just common sense really, but yes, you got it about right.

Andy

[Clare Gledhill]

Originally Posted by JAG

The TDI Advance Nitrox & Deco course advocates the need for self efficiency whilst working as a team, so if you do find yourself solo then you have the tools available to deal with it. Likewise with gas, work to the thirds rule for backgas and half for deco.

It's splitting hairs though isn't it.

I don't PLAN to need my team's help. I do PLAN to be able to help them if they have a problem. So I suppose I'm self sufficient aren't I? As are they....

It's just a different way of looking at it.

[Conor]

Erm, not sure that I'd agree that being able to support a buddy is the same as being self suficient. The opposite may be true though.

An example would be taking a single 15 on a dive requiring <7L of air so you had enough air for your buddy, self sufficiency would be bringing twin 7s

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Gledders

It's splitting hairs though isn't it.

I don't understand?

Originally Posted by Gledders

I don't PLAN to need my team's help. I do PLAN to be able to help them if they have a problem. So I suppose I'm self sufficient aren't I? As are they....

It's just a different way of looking at it.

I agree with you, I don't plan to need my teams help either, my backgas reserves are calculated to get me out of the water in the event of a deco rig failure safely, and doubles as a reserve for any buddy requirements as they have pretty much the same SAC rate as me. Deco reserves are calculated for buddy requirements accordingly. I'm not sure if you thought I was having a go at anyone's procedures because I wasn't. I wouldn't dream of questioning anything that I don't have experience in. Merely answering a question Matt queried regarding "other agencies" as my experience is that of TDI.

[John Touhig]

For any dive requiring deco, I will have with me...

1 Primary Reel
1 Backup Reel
1 Primary Orange Blob
1 Backup Orange Blob
1 Yellow Blob
1 Spare Mask
1 Primary Timer / Computer
1 Backup Timer
1 Set of Tables for that dive

Enough Gas to get me to the next gas source with at least 1/3 in reserve. Ian was also trained by the same instructor as myself so he would also be carry all of the above. Diving as a team we would need to have a double / triple failure before we start to get into problems

Clare, as a DIR diver would you also carry all of the above? The reason I ask is I do not know what the DIR approach is.


John

[Andy the Coastie]

Originally Posted by And

The 'minimum' gas reserves are calculated as enough gas for you to get yourself and one buddy to the next source of gas, which may be a deco gas, but may also be a staged bottle or safety bottle. Mostly we would work on more than minimum, like keeping backgas as a reserve and diving stages for example.
The rest of the resources are just balanced between the tasks required. If you know there are three jumps in the plan then it makes sense for each team member to carry one jump spool each (with perhaps one guy carrying two) and take it in turns to do the jumps, rather than every diver carrying three jump spools, which you know you just don't need.
In a situation where you are ascending to your switch and shooting one bag between three then you only need three bags between the team, but if you must send up a bag each then you may have two bags each. Its just common sense really, but yes, you got it about right.
Andy

Andy , can you clarify more on what EACH diver carries please ?

[Clare Gledhill]

Originally Posted by JAG

I'm not sure if you thought I was having a go at anyone's procedures because I wasn't.

No - not in the slightest Ian. I'm trying to say that being self suffiecent (as much as I hate that term) may not be that different in practice from being a team diver. To me it's an attitude thing more than a kit thing... and thus not agency exclusive. (I've read enough of your posts to think you share this view) Personally, I choose to dive with people who share my attitude towards these things.

Enough Gas to get me to the next gas source with at least 1/3 in reserve. Ian was also trained by the same instructor as myself so he would also be carry all of the above. Diving as a team we would need to have a double / triple failure before we start to get into problems

Hmm.... so if your buddy suffered a total loss of gas at the worst point would your own requirements plus 1/3 reserve be enough to get you both up.... that's not a double failure is it?

Clare, as a DIR diver would you also carry all of the above? The reason I ask is I do not know what the DIR approach is.

Hmm.... well my normal pocket contents are...

1 30 metre spool
1 45 metre spool
1 Small SMB
1 Large SMB in backplate pouch
Three lights
A knife
Depth gauge/timer
Wetnotes which have a form of tables in them, shears and spare trigger pin.
Spare mask

Backgas reserves sufficent to get me and a buddy to next available source of gas (surface or deco) or for me to deco on backgas if deco gas lost. 1.5 times deco gas

Dependant on the dive the team may choose to take a reel and/or a yellow SMB. I may take line markers, and may leave my SMB at home when I go to Mexico

This is just what I carry though - there are no DIR pocket police. As Andy sets out, we try to be practical - take what is needed but enjoy redundancy because we have access to team resources.

[And]

Originally Posted by Andy the Commie

Andy , can you clarify more on what EACH diver carries please ?

Hi

It depends on the dive, but as you are a skipper then you will more than likely be interested in ocean dives

I tend to bring a load of stuff on the boat and then select things to put in my pockets once I know the plan, and I guess many other people do this too (the ones I dive with anyway)

Other than smb's standard items are a mask, snips, wetnotes. Sometimes I don't take a mask, depends on the dive really. Its unlikely that the mask strap breaks as I use the neoprene type strap, and have never ever lost a mask.

With smb's then it depends on whether we are deploying per team or each. If its per team then I take one smb, one spool. If its each I take two smb's two spools. If we have to shoot from deeper than 40 mtrs, then I take a reel. I've never really bought in to the yellow smb thing as I cannot see a situation where I couldn't communicate to the skipper in other ways, so even though I have one I very rarely carry it.

Thats it, other than lights and stuff but then you already know about that stuff.

Andy

[Andy the Coastie]

Originally Posted by And

Hi

It depends on the dive, but as you are a skipper then you will more than likely be interested in ocean dives

I tend to bring a load of stuff on the boat and then select things to put in my pockets once I know the plan, and I guess many other people do this too (the ones I dive with anyway)

Other than smb's standard items are a mask, snips, wetnotes. Sometimes I don't take a mask, depends on the dive really. Its unlikely that the mask strap breaks as I use the neoprene type strap, and have never ever lost a mask.

With smb's then it depends on whether we are deploying per team or each. If its per team then I take one smb, one spool. If its each I take two smb's two spools. If we have to shoot from deeper than 40 mtrs, then I take a reel. I've never really bought in to the yellow smb thing as I cannot see a situation where I couldn't communicate to the skipper in other ways, so even though I have one I very rarely carry it.

Thats it, other than lights and stuff but then you already know about that stuff.

Andy

So, basically..... if you were doing a sea dive, then you are self sufficient if the brown stuff flies about.....

Reason i say this, is that i had a 3 man buddy group during the summer and i noticed from thier briefing that one was carrying one thing for the group and another was carrying something else ....

When they were due to ascend, the tide hit of of them as he came off the wreck, and in the tide flow he went and couldn't get back to the other 2 ,,,, this lead the chap having to do a free ascent on his own and hit the surface well within his dive plan with out any problems. just caused a bit of havoc as he had no surface indentification aids with him as spare , ( other 2 had them ) ... when he deployed his DSMB, the reel line came off at a speed that it was pulled out his hand and lost.

I really do find that when some of the DIR divers keep saying this TEAM ( which i hate the saying...... Footbal , Rugby retc etc have teams ) word , that every body is releying on each other to much.......

I get thinking back to the Falklands when a big lessons was learnt.......

1). You don't put all the ammo on one ship
2). You don't put all the wagons on one ship.
3). You don't put all the men on one ship.

List is endless.

The SAS don't work in 4 man groups where one carries the machine gun , and his mate carries all his ammo.......

SO , WHY SHOULD DIVERS BE THINKING LIKE IT ...........


One day , perhaps i'll get my head round it all ..........