Team diving - always??

[John Touhig]

Originally Posted by Gledders

Hmm.... so if your buddy suffered a total loss of gas at the worst point would your own requirements plus 1/3 reserve be enough to get you both up.... that's not a double failure is it?

Yes cos it means that he's lost all of his back gas and his deco gas. Bear in mind that I plan my gas to enable me to complete my deco on my back gas in case I loose my deco gas.

So in the event that my buddy lost all of his gas (back and Deco) I would hand off my stage to him and complete my deco on my back gas and still have a third in reserve.

[And]

Originally Posted by Andy the Commie

So, basically..... if you were doing a sea dive, then you are self sufficient if the brown stuff flies about.....

One might say that. You do not want to become a burden to the team, and that is one of the responsibilities you owe to your team-mates. They are there to help if needed, as the philosophy is that two brains are better than one, three brains are better than two etc. but they are not there to carry you.

Andy

[MATTBIN]

Originally Posted by Andy the Commie

So, basically..... if you were doing a sea dive, then you are self sufficient if the brown stuff flies about.....
Reason i say this, is that i had a 3 man buddy group during the summer and i noticed from thier briefing that one was carrying one thing for the group and another was carrying something else ....
When they were due to ascend, the tide hit of of them as he came off the wreck, and in the tide flow he went and couldn't get back to the other 2 ,,,, this lead the chap having to do a free ascent on his own and hit the surface well within his dive plan with out any problems. just caused a bit of havoc as he had no surface indentification aids with him as spare , ( other 2 had them ) ... when he deployed his DSMB, the reel line came off at a speed that it was pulled out his hand and lost.

SO , WHY SHOULD DIVERS BE THINKING LIKE IT ...........
One day , perhaps i'll get my head round it all ..........

The way I see it is that individual divers carry their own gas reserves but if a real big failure hits one of the team then they have enough between them to bail out the oog member, which surely is another good thing.
SMB etc is spread around the group (better word?) to avoid un-necessary clutter, another good thing(?) unfortunately sometimes sh1t happens and the policy/procedure breaks down, however in the case you quoted the diver managed to do a free ascent including his deco etc and still get picked up, seems to me to show good skills and a sound policy. I accept he could have been swept away and who knows maybe next time he'll adopt Gledders policy and duplicate everything.

Matt

[Andy the Coastie]

Originally Posted by MATTBIN

The way I see it is that individual divers carry their own gas reserves but if a real big failure hits one of the team then they have enough between them to bail out the oog member, which surely is another good thing.

There it is again TEAM bloody word.

So, if another group was diving on that wreck from another boat, and one of thier divers had a problem and you needed / asked to help .. would you ? as he is not your TEAM member.. think not some how,,,,, ask Fiona.

Originally Posted by MATTBIN

SMB etc is spread around the group (better word?) to avoid un-necessary clutter, another good thing(?) unfortunately sometimes sh1t happens and the policy/procedure breaks down

95 % of all the diver i carry, fire thier own blobs... It's better for me that WAY which i perfer , as i then now how many divers are ok and on thier way up and can place the boat occordinly. With diving in a 3 man group and only ONE blob comes up, you don't know what the hell is happening from the skippers side of things.

Originally Posted by MATTBIN

however in the case you quoted the diver managed to do a free ascent including his deco etc and still get picked up, seems to me to show good skills and a sound policy.

Yep, he was a well switched on chap with only 40 sea dives to his name, mind you he was a ex memebr of the HM Forces, so did what he was told , when he was told.

It's a same that the instructor afterwards didn't share my comments and let me explain more in detail,,,,,,, he chose not to instruct again and limit his diving to overseas in pretty waters .

Originally Posted by MATTBIN

I accept he could have been swept away and who knows maybe next time he'll adopt Gledders policy and duplicate everything.

Only if the equipment is worth having , and this has been around a long time..It's common sense, not Gledders policy , Matt.......... More to the point , that when this matter arises , I always refer to people to look on YD at any of Chasey's threads on renduncy.

[Digger]

No criticism, as team diving is something DIR do very well, but sometimes it gets misinterpreted.

When I dive in a team, which is not normally the case, largely due to a shortage of people who dive in a similar way and who are prepared to follow the restrictions it entails, then we will carry enough gas for someone else to deco out on (halves) and have enough gas to get them to their first stop. So if they blow their backgas I give them my reg and come up. Get to gas swtich and they are ok again, gas to breathe. Deco gas goes they come up on backgas until I can pass off the stage.

I'll avoid goign into RB team diving and stuff because I don't know enough about it and it's not DIR by a mile, so different forum.

I was taught to stay witht he team and plan for others needs by a PSA and IANTD intructor. IANTD seems to have a focus on the team and on attitude and preparation more than the TDI courses I've encountered. It depends ont he instructor you train with, but nowadays any instructor who isn't giving you a focus on the people you dive with and to be able to assist them in some way is behind the times. There's a place for solo diving, but self-sufficiency doesn't mean you're capable of that. I am a self-sufficient diver but for a solo dive my planning and gear is completely different.

It does annoy me a bit when I see the perception that you have to be DIR to dive in a team. There are thousands of divers who have exactly the same attitude to it and work the same way, but you don't often see them because they just get on with it and keep their heads down. Team diving isn't a new idea, and most of the DIR divers I know will agree.

Digs.

[MATTBIN]

Originally Posted by Andy the Commie

There it is again TEAM bloody word.
So, if another group was diving on that wreck from another boat, and one of thier divers had a problem and you needed / asked to help .. would you ? as he is not your TEAM member.. think not some how,,,,, ask Fiona.

Whoa, were did that come from, of course I'd help another diver in trouble DIR or not assuming you wouldnt put yourself in excess danger. I cant answer for a DIR diver, or even any other diver, I'm not suggesting I'm DIR either or probably ever will be but I'd like to think we would all help any other diver in trouble. I dont think it fair to generalise either on this point in favour or against one training agency/club/whatever.

95 % of all the diver i carry, fire thier own blobs... It's better for me that WAY which i perfer , as i then now how many divers are ok and on thier way up and can place the boat occordinly. With diving in a 3 man group and only ONE blob comes up, you don't know what the hell is happening from the skippers side of things.

I have always been asked to fire one between two, admittedly I havent donethat many sea dives, but I have been on several different boats, I dont recall what you said your policy was when I dived with you, sorry

It's common sense, not Gledders policy , Matt..........

I meant in the context of this thread, I'm sure you knew that.

More to the point , that when this matter arises , I always refer to people to look on YD at any of Chasey's threads on renduncy.

Even though he's always stated he is a solo diver and doesnt carry gas for a buddy? Obviously its Mark and his buddy's choice how they plan their gas management, it wouldnt be my choice but then I dont do the deep dives he does so I'm talking bollox probably for a seriously deep dive.

Matt

[Digger]

Originally Posted by Andy the Commie

There it is again TEAM bloody word.
So, if another group was diving on that wreck from another boat, and one of thier divers had a problem and you needed / asked to help .. would you ? as he is not your TEAM member.. think not some how,,,,, ask Fiona.
95 % of all the diver i carry, fire thier own blobs... It's better for me that WAY which i perfer , as i then now how many divers are ok and on thier way up and can place the boat occordinly. With diving in a 3 man group and only ONE blob comes up, you don't know what the hell is happening from the skippers side of things.
Yep, he was a well switched on chap with only 40 sea dives to his name, mind you he was a ex memebr of the HM Forces, so did what he was told , when he was told.
It's a same that the instructor afterwards didn't share my comments and let me explain more in detail,,,,,,, he chose not to instruct again and limit his diving to overseas in pretty waters .
Only if the equipment is worth having , and this has been around a long time..It's common sense, not Gledders policy , Matt.......... More to the point , that when this matter arises , I always refer to people to look on YD at any of Chasey's threads on renduncy.

They would help. There might be 3 of them go in to do the helping, but they would go. I know of one DIR diver who has saved someone's life who he had nothing to do with underwater, and only through being well drilled and keeping his head on could he do this. We all would. One thing I'd doubt is whether many DIR divers would jump in on their own to help, but then they would see that as endangering themselves, so I understand it.

If a skipper wants bags up from all divers they will, they've agreed to that. Everyone has to read off the same hymn sheet, skiper included. If a skipper doesn't specify then they'll get divers coming up as they want. I'd rather not have more than one bag and reel between a team of two as the lines get tangled and all sorts, I'd rather just hold a stop using the other guy for reference, which works fine and is easier for me using the breather with 3 hands required at times!

Sounds like the DIR divers you encountered weren't GUE trained divers. I've not seen many who would have ended up in the mess you describe. It's just not their way. Plenty who can stick on a one piece harness and use AL80s, very few who are really DIR. Part of the problem is it's publicised so widely on the net it's very easy to look like a DIR diver and give them a bad name as such. That said, I won't pretend there's not some GUE trained divers who I think are complete arses who are pretty shite divers, but so far I could count them on one hand, and most of the reason for me was their attitude (the one true path bollocks)- this tends to wear off a bit over time.

Digs.

[neilh]

Originally Posted by Andy the Commie

There it is again TEAM bloody word.
So, if another group was diving on that wreck from another boat, and one of thier divers had a problem and you needed / asked to help .. would you ?

Steady Andy - that's nothing to do with GUE that's an individual choice. GUE certainly doesn't train divers to ignore everyone else underwater and I'm sure anyone, from any agency, would step in and help if someone needed it.

Originally Posted by Andy the Commie

95 % of all the diver i carry, fire thier own blobs... It's better for me that WAY which i perfer , as i then now how many divers are ok and on thier way up and can place the boat occordinly.

From a GUE perspective the team (sorry to use that word again ) isn't just the divers, it includes you and your crew. If you prefer one blob per diver then you get one per diver (and everyone would carry a backup). If you were happy with one per group (buddy pair, DIR threesome, whatever) then the divers would probably go in with just the one each.

[John Touhig]

Originally Posted by neilh

DIR threesome

You should have been at Vobster last Sunday...

I'll let Clare, Al & Mark explain that one. The things you see when you don't have your camera....


As for team diving, I am 100% for it. I carry all of my own backup's as I've already described in this thread as you never know when your going to lose your buddy. Just ask Garf, Digger & The Dude, they didn't lose me I lost them, but thats another story..

The major thing that my instructor (Mark Powell) pulled me up on when I did Deco Procs was team awareness. Given where my diving has come from, mainly holiday diving in the past, then this is not a surprise.

I see team diving as now one of my top priorities. I've recently buddied up with a fellow YD'er and we've spent a fair bit of time in muddy puddles this year working on our team skills and awareness before we go out and do more challanging dives in the salty stuff.

One thing that GUE trained divers have is that they are drilled to dive in the same way so that if they dive with a new team it's not too much of a change. They know what to expect from each other.

Just my thoughts..


John

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by John Touhig

. If I need it I take two, so I have my own backup should I need it. However as Mark has said if a team member needs something I wouldn't hesitate in giving them my spare.
John

Neither would I

BUT once back on the boat I would rip into him for not having his own spare and risking my safety to bail his sorry arse out. Unless he had a damed good excuse Id refuse to dive with him again

I havent quite got a lid on the lovey dovey DIR thing yet have I


ATB

Mark Chase