Harness configurations.

[divetheworld]

Hi guys, hope you dont mind the intrusion. I just wanted to pick the brains of those who understand the DIR philosophy.

I can appreciate the need for fault tolerant equipment configurations and the need to eliminate the possibility of failure, but...

I have a colleague who suffers from a physical impairment which is a bit of a pain in the arse, which also means they have difficulty in using a one-peice harness. If you could use a harness with a buckle which could not be broken or released by accident, would this still be frowned upon?
I was going to make them a harness with one break-point using such such a clip.

Thanks for any points of view you may have, genuinely interested.

Brent.

[Paddy Diver]

I use the DiveRite harness with a pinch clip and a guy once told me that if you stitch a small length of harness or weight-belt above and below the clip then it will still give you the freedom of a harness with a break but if the clip did break then the extra bit of webbing would still hold the whole thing together and keep it on you:

I hope you understand me, if ya dont Ill try and explain abit better.

[johnkendall]

Originally Posted by divetheworld

Hi guys, hope you dont mind the intrusion. I just wanted to pick the brains of those who understand the DIR philosophy.
I can appreciate the need for fault tolerant equipment configurations and the need to eliminate the possibility of failure, but...
I have a colleague who suffers from a physical impairment which is a bit of a pain in the arse, which also means they have difficulty in using a one-peice harness. If you could use a harness with a buckle which could not be broken or released by accident, would this still be frowned upon?
I was going to make them a harness with one break-point using such such a clip.
Thanks for any points of view you may have, genuinely interested.
Brent.

If the harness is set up properly, and you have enough movement to be able to achieve shut downs and the rest of the skills then there shouldn't be too much issue getting into and out of the harness. If they cannot perform the skills, then they will never be DIR regardless of kit config. It's a risk analysis thing, the reason that DIR doesn't have any clips is because they are not needed and are a failure point. Does it matter of shallow, short recreational dives? Nope. However the core of DIR is standardisation. If you put a break in the harness, how does this effect the position of stage bottles, backup lights etc? Can you still scooter if the clip breaks? Every bit of the config does impact on other things, so you can't just change little things and expect to still be DIR. Also, you can't take a GUE course with a break in your harness.

But having said all that, there is nothing to stop anyone putting a break in their harness.

J

[Digger]

I'd suggest that if you can't scooter with a broken harness you probably shouldn't be scootering at all. I was on a course recently where any breaks in the harness were required to be "broken" and carry on, no major problem. You use one hand to hold the top end down, if you have the break under your arm with the stages clipped on then there is virtually no difference I found.

You can scooter with one hand can't you? I know you can, I've seen it done a great deal, and done it myself. Easier with a towing strap, but then you've got those don't you.

One thing I would add. Rescuing someone in a one piece harness is no where near as easy as rescuing a harness with a break. When seconds count I'd rather be a body which can be recovered fast at the expense of risking a failure which is in no way difficult as a situation for me to deal with on a dive.

Only other advantage is that a one piece harness can be easily replaced with one piece of webbing, but then if you rig your buckle carefully you can use a single piece to do that too with no need for stitching or great complications.

I know what you mean about standardising, but it isn't something I'd do lightly.

I think the answer to your question is probably that your colleague is unlikely to be DIR. His body may prevent it. People are not standardised, but you can standardise them by removing anomoles. No offence intended, you can't go changing the system to suit everyone. Probably feels a bit shitty for those on the outside looking in, but they'll have to come up with a different standardised system.

Digs.

[divetheworld]

Originally Posted by Digger

I'd suggest that if you can't scooter with a broken harness you probably shouldn't be scootering at all. I was on a course recently where any breaks in the harness were required to be "broken" and carry on, no major problem. You use one hand to hold the top end down, if you have the break under your arm with the stages clipped on then there is virtually no difference I found.

You can scooter with one hand can't you? I know you can, I've seen it done a great deal, and done it myself. Easier with a towing strap, but then you've got those don't you.

One thing I would add. Rescuing someone in a one piece harness is no where near as easy as rescuing a harness with a break. When seconds count I'd rather be a body which can be recovered fast at the expense of risking a failure which is in no way difficult as a situation for me to deal with on a dive.

Only other advantage is that a one piece harness can be easily replaced with one piece of webbing, but then if you rig your buckle carefully you can use a single piece to do that too with no need for stitching or great complications.

I know what you mean about standardising, but it isn't something I'd do lightly.

I think the answer to your question is probably that your colleague is unlikely to be DIR. His body may prevent it. People are not standardised, but you can standardise them by removing anomoles. No offence intended, you can't go changing the system to suit everyone. Probably feels a bit shitty for those on the outside looking in, but they'll have to come up with a different standardised system.

Digs.

No, its not shitty at all. In fact I have learned a great deal from the comments left for this particular problem.
My colleague thinks that some of the philosophies of DIR are sensible and of firm foundation. you are right that they will probably not be DIR per se, but that isnt as important as taking pertinent advise based on good founded experience.
One break on the left shoulder using the right hardware might be considered a fair compromise taking into account their disability.

I appreciate the advise, I'll pass it on.

Brent

[NotDeadYet]

Some people make one of the shoulder loops bigger than needed and then rig a clip or buckle to take up the slack. The harness is still unbroken but it does allow for a bit of slack when needed. Is it DIR? I doubt it.

If anyone has ever seen/used an olde worlde Hawaiian style backpack then you realise breaks are not the end of the world (it has no shoulder straps at all).

[gibbon]

Originally Posted by NotDeadYet

Some people make one of the shoulder loops bigger than needed and then rig a clip or buckle to take up the slack. The harness is still unbroken but it does allow for a bit of slack when needed. Is it DIR? I doubt it.

This sounds like an excellent compromise given the situation.

[Steve S]

Originally Posted by NotDeadYet

Some people make one of the shoulder loops bigger than needed and then rig a clip or buckle to take up the slack. The harness is still unbroken but it does allow for a bit of slack when needed. Is it DIR? I doubt it.

Thats what I use with the extra 8 inch "ooh matron " tucked neatly into the strap by a mountain bike snoopy loop.

Safe diving,
Steve

[divetheworld]

OK, heres a strange question. assuming the following is true;
The no clips strategy is based upon limiting potential failure points.

Webbing is a potential failure point, but so remote and far fetched that it would not even be discussed, so what if there was a clip/release which was so bomb proof that it was impossible to break or damage to the same extent as the webbing?

Had some contemplation time on my hands, I wondered what your take on this would be.


Brent

[Mark Chase]

I am using a single piece harness for my DIR diving. I have had it set up by the professional DIR instructors and I have to say they are stupid and bloody dangerous idea.

I really struggle getting out of it and if I were stuck inside a wreck and needed to dekit in a tight space it would be imposable. Id have to cut myself out of the rig. On my old rig all I needed to do was reach the pinch clips and I could swim out of it. Ill continue to use the rig to satisfy DIR requirements but its too dangerous to risk serious wreck penetration. Surface rescue is another issue. I have herd loads of DIR divers tell me its not a problem but I remain unconvinced.

Lets face it 90% of pinch clips are bomb proof. If they fail its going to be climbing the ladder after the dive or on the boat standing up its not gong to be in the water.

My old CD rig had one pinch clip that opened and I unclipped it during a dive to see what happened. Nothing happened it was not a problem.

Owing to the way the CD harness was designed i could have used a double end bolt snap to rebuild the shoulder strap. Seeing as i always use double ender bolt snaps to hold my deco stages in place I always have a spare on me. Just use the nose double ender to fix the harness and clip the stage on.

I see the one piece harness as fixing a problem that doesn't exist. In doing so it creates more problems and is potentially dangerous. Unless you have to use it to be part of DIR I would strongly advise against it.