Cherry picking the best bits.....

[Howard Payne]

Not much of a secret that I embrace the whole thing - but I believe (ignoring the arguement about which side you have them on - which I don't think you can - but lets ignore it anyway): The way GUE choose, mark, rig and deploy stages and deco cylinders, I think has a huge amount to recommend it. Likwise the finstrokes, trim and buoyancy are terrific as Woz suggested, just as two examples

As others have suggested, a lot of this stuff really only works well / has relevance / adds safety when you're all doing it as a unified team to use that horribly DIR expression. The dives I do with one of my regular buddies that I did fundies with are so relaxed and easy and fun that it really feels like its all been worthwhile. We still have the odd "Oh B*gger" moment but its not an "Oh Sh*t" moment as someone else pointed out the other day

I can confirm that scootering down the main companionway inside the Scylla is a "near sex experience", but I have done it without and it works just as well! :-)

As someone with getting on for only 120 dives - I really believe that I couldn't have got the level of in water proficiency and skill that I now have any other way. I didn't start out with a lot of talent - I'm not a "natural" in the water - but I've come a very long way in a short space of time with GUE and with a lot of help from other DIR divers. I started picking cherries then I guess I bought the orchard (a bloody orchard would have been cheaper I reckon)

A lot of GUE guys adopt the "you can't be a bit pregnant" all or nothing approach and I'm one of them for my own diving. But at the same time, I reckon that if other divers want to cherry pick bits that help make their diving safer, easier or more fun then where's the problem? George and Jarrod did pretty much the same thing when they set DIR up - so why can't you?

For me it's a basic tenet that we should all share the good bits and the scary sh*t for the benefit and learning of the whole diving community - regardless of agency.

Making public any new discoveries, regardless of whether they contradict previous best practice or accepted theory is one of the central guiding principals of GUE as an organisation anyway. If ultra tight, packet hugging speedos are found to be deeply gay and boardshorts become DIR - you'll be the first to know!

[MattD]

I think that it is very dangerous to wrap the long hose round you in a hog style if you don't dive with others who do the same, and are drilled in donating/recieving air that way.

I would also question the use of a single piece harness without training. If you don't have it adjusted properly it maybe tough to get out of for some. (EG RIB diving) and this can be dangerous.

Obviously for your trained GUE diver these are not issues, and having dived with DIR guys the last 3 years I can assure you of that.

But when talking about "Cherry Picking" one must be mindful that the system could have negative effects if the kit is bought without the training.

In the end I realised that I was being out dived in pretty much every area, and that my kit never seemed to streamlined or effective as my friends. So I changed out all the kit, and booked on a GUE course.

So now I am about to start the GUE-F course, and I notice from the roster of 6 students, I have taught 3 of them to dive! (CMAS *, ** and Nitrox.) How fucking stupid am I going to feel if I don't pass.

Sorry for the tangent, back ontopic:

Anyway I hear lots of people saying it would be tricky to dive "DIR" in their clubs/area as they would be short of buddies. Well I had the opposit situation, all my buddies had changed over.

It's a great system, and whatever your experience/qualifications, diving is all about learning, so take a DIR-F course if you want to "Cherry Pick" you have nothing to lose and you may learn somthing.

Just my 2p.

[chrisch]

Originally Posted by Howard Payne

...so why can't you?
..

'cos its a system. The finning techniques for example are taught by IANTD - they are not DIR. Bouyancy - great yeah I agree - go do a PADI PPB ticket - they will let you do it in twins and a long hose if you want...

Kit choice and rigging isn't DIR. I dive hog and so do most folk with any technical training. My credit card will buy the same equipment as anyone elses...

Sorry - I'm being pedantic

What should you take from the DIR system if you don't want to sign up??

The "get it right" attitude.

Chris

[Lou]

Originally Posted by MattD

It's a great system, and whatever your experience/qualifications, diving is all about learning, so take a DIR-F course if you want to "Cherry Pick" you have nothing to lose and you may learn somthing.

Just my 2p.

It'll take alot of your 2p's to make up the cost of the course

I cannot agree that not being trained to use the hogloop or one-piece harness is in some way enormously dangerous. What sort of world do we live in where someone has to show us how to take off 3 bits of webbing? If it is too hard you have done it wrong, or you just aren't suited so don't so it. Simple.

For me, some things about DIR are sensible only if viewed as a part of the whole system, whereas some ideas are good ideas and stond on their own merit. I look at, and assess with respect to my diving, all I see and read from where ever, including DIR, and try stuff out myself. If I like it I keep it!

I'm not really that bothered about where the bungee goes vs where the boltsnap is on my goodman handle for example, but I do like the hogloop (even if I then route my hoses behind my wing instead of in front). I keep my wing toggle and boots, but I do try and get my trim reasonable.

I dive nitrox below 30m, but I do have the same mix as my buddy and we try to not use alot of different mixes so that we can get a real feel for the deco.

DIR is just a soure of info like any other agency. The difference is that the answers are generally easier to come by from them as there is less room for interpretation!

Lou

[SoggyFox]

DIR appears to me to be like any other agency and a conglomeration of ideas and techniques, not better or worse than any other and suited for the diving they were born out of.

I'm pretty sure none of my kit would conform in any way, for a start i dive rb and the rest of my gear suits my requirements, i don't generally like to be told buy this or that, I'll make my own stupid mistakes with kit.

The good bits as i understand it from what i've read, i don't mind being corrected. Standard gases giving rise to standards deco etc, everyone on the same thing is a damn good idea for deeper longer stuff, no second guessing your buddy you know exactly how long etc. The team ethos is another idea i applaud, its something that we should all strive for, work as a team/pair etc and many problems are solved before they even rise to the fore.

thats my tuppence worth.

[MattD]

Originally Posted by Lou

It'll take alot of your 2p's to make up the cost of the course

I cannot agree that not being trained to use the hogloop or one-piece harness is in some way enormously dangerous. What sort of world do we live in where someone has to show us how to take off 3 bits of webbing? If it is too hard you have done it wrong, or you just aren't suited so don't so it. Simple.

For me, some things about DIR are sensible only if viewed as a part of the whole system, whereas some ideas are good ideas and stond on their own merit. I look at, and assess with respect to my diving, all I see and read from where ever, including DIR, and try stuff out myself. If I like it I keep it!

I'm not really that bothered about where the bungee goes vs where the boltsnap is on my goodman handle for example, but I do like the hogloop (even if I then route my hoses behind my wing instead of in front). I keep my wing toggle and boots, but I do try and get my trim reasonable.

I dive nitrox below 30m, but I do have the same mix as my buddy and we try to not use alot of different mixes so that we can get a real feel for the deco.

DIR is just a soure of info like any other agency. The difference is that the answers are generally easier to come by from them as there is less room for interpretation!

Lou

It is my understanding that some divers have had OOA buddies going for their primary in a fashion that cause the hose to tighten on their neck, and make a chin dip for the secondry near impossible.

So if diving with a CMAS/PADI/BS-AC etc diver, especially one with limited experience, it is my opinion that diving a hog loop could be an issue.

If the major recreational agencies don't teach primary donate, then diving that fashion with divers who don't understand the system seems inappropriate.

Diving with your regualr "Tech" buddy, where both of you know the score, seems fine to me.

I fully accept your issue with costs & training. I did my full trimix back in 1999 with a chap called Jack off the south coast of the UK, so apart from the CCR course, I hadn't really paid for training for a while.

I felt it was a small investment if it improves my chances of coming back to my family. With diving, I'll try and take as much advice as I can, think about it, and then decide.

I have no issue with cherry picking from any training, I'm just trying to point out that mixing & matching the primary reg configuration **may** cause issue.

As for the Harness, fair enough, I was fine too. But I heard of divers having it dead tight and then causing all sorts of bother on UK dive boats when they can't out out of the things in bad swell. Not good.

[neilh]

Originally Posted by chrisch

The finning techniques for example are taught by IANTD - they are not DIR. Bouyancy - great yeah I agree - go do a PADI PPB ticket - they will let you do it in twins and a long hose if you want...

Kit choice and rigging isn't DIR. I dive hog and so do most folk with any technical training.

To be equally pedantic they absolutely are DIR, but that's not to say they are exclusively DIR

Originally Posted by chrisch

What should you take from the DIR system if you don't want to sign up??
The "get it right" attitude.

An important point that sometimes gets missed in the heat of discussions, well said!

Originally Posted by Howard Payne

For me it's a basic tenet that we should all share the good bits and the scary sh*t for the benefit and learning of the whole diving community - regardless of agency.

I'd agree 100% on that. Surely the whole point of "cherry picking" is that you want to gather ideas from various places that you feel will improve your diving in some way (skill, safety, enjoyment, whatever).

Personally I don't find the discussions on which of the "good" bits of DIR people like and adopt all that useful. As someone who has made the decision to follow the DIR route early in my diving career what I find far more interesting are the discussions about which bits people take issue with. It's the analysis and challenging of the concepts by people with far more experience than I that allows me to think about whether it still makes sense to me or not.

Anyway sorry - carry on

[divingniknaks]

Can I also be pedantic ?

DIR is the style/method of diving, GUE is the Agency.


As you were

[turbanator]

Originally Posted by divingniknaks

Can I also be pedantic ?

DIR is the style/method of diving, GUE is the Agency.


As you were

Since we're playing this, can I be ironic?
DIR is a style of diving that is a result of cherry picking what is the best available.

Having said that, many people do that, plagarise or flatter by nicking ideas.
DIR is one such combination of what was there (albeit a very good one), that was adopted as a standard by a group if divers (WKPP) then it was branded and marketed.
Fair play, a niche was seen in a market and someone filled it, capitalism and the American dream at work.
Does this mean that it's the best for all sorts of diving?
I can think of some rare occasions where it's not.

r
Paul

[frosty the snowman]

For me the good thing is the philosophy of honing skills and the emphasis on forethought and careful planning. What doesn't suit me is the rigidity of the philosophy which is far too dogmatic for my taste and the inference that I'm 'doing it wrong' if I don't follow that system. After 25 years of diving I still believe I have a lot to learn but I also believe I've learnt a lot already. Enough to allow me to think flexibly and for myself anyway!