DIR - WHY?

[Mal Bridgeman]

Originally Posted by Steve S

Of course you don't see that as a strength because you are sold on the system and fortunate enough to easily meet all it's requirements. I have more faith in an instructor who can take a student 'in whatever kit they turn up in' and build them into a safe and competent diver, albeit sub-optimal in your view than an instructor who teaches from a fixed viewpoint.

I really do get why it is such a good system for those who want it, but IMO it's not necessary to keep pointing out how superior it is to other diving agencies and to other divers configurations.

Steve,

Firstly, no-one *easily* meets GUE requirements

Secondly, I hope I don't actually go round telling everyone that GUE is superior. I do try to point out inaccuracies in what people say or believe about the agency or indeed claim can be achieved elsewhere. They are my opinions, though and it's why I am so keen on running the Discover DIR days where both the tone of how I actually *say* things can be appreciated and gives a great opportunity for people to ask questions where covering the finer points is difficult on a forum such as this.

You should know me well enough to know that I would have thought.

Rgrds
Mal

[Fiona]

Originally Posted by Andy the Coastie

Oh ,,,,,, silly me ,,, forgot you were a MOD .. what RIGHT have you got to tell me what to do ........

You know this has nothing to do with my comment, you posted it was about time the thread was closed - why just because you don't like the way it is going.

Same as Kev's thread, he wanted to tell people he was looking forward to his fundies course next week and you had to change the direction - why again.

[Mal Bridgeman]

Originally Posted by Andy the Coastie

A dive system that dictates to who can't join because they are a smoker is in my mind or you have to all have the same kit OR even branded name equipment ,,,,, is no different to being in some essex chav gang . ( ya not joining my gang as you haven't got NIKE trainers ).

Couple of things Andy,

Diving DIR is not compulsory .... you don't *have* to and if you don't see any value in what it has to offer then fine ..... but why do you feel it necessary to then say stuff like

Originally Posted by Andy the Coastie

A dive system that dictates to who can't join because they are a smoker is in my mind or you have to all have the same kit OR even branded name equipment ,,,,, is no different to being in some essex chav gang . ( ya not joining my gang as you haven't got NIKE trainers ).

What do you think people join? It's a training agency that people get dive training from and then go diving together. You are not forced to have the kit and I think a number of people would be offended by the accusation that you have to buy a particular brand. It is just not like that. There are attributes of certain pieces of kit which make it inappropriate to dive DIR, but the range of kit which does allow that is large. The essex chav remark is below you I think.

Originally Posted by Andy the Coastie

About time this thread was closed ,,,, as been done to death .....

Reading the thread and commenting on it is not compulsory either and as Chasey says at least it's not about the colour of your poo !

Mal

[the_negligent_snail]

Originally Posted by Ahmed Adly

The problem is that they (those who generally make derogatory statements)think they are justified due to their higher status

This statement suggests that you agree GUE trained divers have a "Higher Status" - so something must have given you that impression - what?

My own feelings are that they have a system that has been tried and tested (by them) and that has now been adopted by many and is still growing. The sheer number of people who are taking the GUE-F course are increasing and when those divers are in the company of others, is it really surprising that they talk about their acheivments? That they are enthusiastic about the standards of diving and teamwork that goes to the core of the GUE system? That they are proud to have had their diving skills recognised by, lets face it, quite strict standards?

To my mind it is this enthusiasm that may be wrongly perceived by some as arrogance, but I dont think it is, after all, when you have a system (and standards) that are so vastly different to the "norms" of PADI and BSAC club diving there is a great deal to talk about and it may bore the pants off those who are happy in their own ways and that is the thing - I dont think anyone from GUE is saying that those methods are somehow wrong - just "Different".

I know very little of DIR at present so perhaps I am speaking out of turn and if so I apologise. However, of the DIR divers I have met absolutely none have struck me as being arrogant or condescending to others dive systems or methods and if they were i am sure it would be frowned upon by the GUE faithful in general.

Just my opinion


(With GUE-F Booked for August....!)

[Steve S]

Originally Posted by Mal Bridgeman

Steve,

Firstly, no-one *easily* meets GUE requirements

Secondly, I hope I don't actually go round telling everyone that GUE is superior. I do try to point out inaccuracies in what people say or believe about the agency or indeed claim can be achieved elsewhere. They are my opinions, though and it's why I am so keen on running the Discover DIR days where both the tone of how I actually *say* things can be appreciated and gives a great opportunity for people to ask questions where covering the finer points is difficult on a forum such as this.

You should know me well enough to know that I would have thought.

Rgrds
Mal

I thought I did, but quite a few posts recently have made me think that perhaps I don't, that said hopefully you're right about tone and difficulty in getting a point across.

Originally Posted by the_negligent_snail

This statement suggests that you agree GUE trained divers have a "Higher Status" - so something must have given you that impression - what?

My own feelings are that they have a system that has been tried and tested (by them) and that has now been adopted by many and is still growing. The sheer number of people who are taking the GUE-F course are increasing and when those divers are in the company of others, is it really surprising that they talk about their acheivments? That they are enthusiastic about the standards of diving and teamwork that goes to the core of the GUE system? That they are proud to have had their diving skills recognised by, lets face it, quite strict standards?

To my mind it is this enthusiasm that may be wrongly perceived by some as arrogance, but I dont think it is, after all, when you have a system (and standards) that are so vastly different to the "norms" of PADI and BSAC club diving there is a great deal to talk about and it may bore the pants off those who are happy in their own ways and that is the thing -

It's a fine line between enthusiasm and arrogance, often as you say the difference being in the eye of the beholder but the sad fact is some see a GUE cert almost as a God given licence to denigrate others, it has always been so and IMO is still there in some, admittedly not as overt as in the past.

Originally Posted by the_negligent_snail

I dont think anyone from GUE is saying that those methods are somehow wrong - just "Different".

Or sub-optimal?

Safe diving,
Steve

[Scubee]

Originally Posted by Mal Bridgeman

Secondly, I hope I don't actually go round telling everyone that GUE is superior.l

Sometimes it seems to be the case, Mal

[Bardo]

Originally Posted by Mal Bridgeman

Steve,

Firstly, no-one *easily* meets GUE requirements

Secondly, I hope I don't actually go round telling everyone that GUE is superior. I do try to point out inaccuracies in what people say or believe about the agency or indeed claim can be achieved elsewhere.

Talking of innaccuracies, I'd like to pull you up on a comment from earlier...

Originally Posted by Mal Bridgeman

For me, one thing that even the best of the non-DIR Instructors don't have, is a team based system (inc. kit, procedure & protocols) to train to and grow the diver systemically.

They tend to work with what the student arrives with ..... e.g. inverts, bungee wings etc. [1]

That's not strictly true. Any tech instructor worth his salt will start a course (regardless of the level) with a look at his own and his student's kit configuration. This will normally take the form of running through why the instructor chooses to configure their kit in that way and why it is suitable for the type of diving they do. They'll then follow this up by getting the student to critique their own kit and offer advice on how sometimes subtle changes can make fundamental improvements. Whilst this rarely takes the form of 'you *must* make these changes', it's not normally neccessary - I've very rarely seen a student refuse to make a change when the benefits have been explained to them. The fact is that most students don't configure their kit because they believe that it's the *best* way of doing it - they normally do it because it's how others have shown them or they've simply adopted the approach through trial and error. Fact is, a student that goes on a tech course with pre-conceived ideas and a closed mind is simply wasting their money - you pay the instructor to improve your diving, not to cherry pick the stuff that fits into your own preconceived notions. Ultimately we've all got to be open-minded with diving - even the DIR system changes through a process of evolution. After all, there was a time when o-rings were used for break aways

That's not to say that a technical instructor will simply 'work with what the student arrives with' if they believe that the configuration will hamper or endanger the student in any way. I've never seen a student turned away for refusing to change their kit but then that's because I've never seen a student refuse to make fundamental changes to their kit if they can see genuine benefits in those changes! Hell - I once saw a guy buy a complete twinverts rig with a horrible Zeagle BC/wing on ebay and the day after the first day of his course, the whole lot went back on ebay! He wasn't forced to sell his kit - he just realised that the configuration was far from optimal. Any student that turns up on a course and refuses to make changes that will offer a genuine benefit is there just to get a ticket, imho - they're not there to learn. This something that certainly the tech instructor I work with wouldn't be very impressed by.

BTW - referring to the 'DIR divers' who Steve Harris claims he saw damaging coral on a Red Sea wreck. Let's just accept that they *could* have been DIR - DIR divers are human, after all, and mistakes do sometimes happen. Just because you've got a GUE ticket doesn't mean that you won't make mistakes - sh*t happens, after all. I'm sure even Jarrod has had the occasional 'b*llocks' moment on a dive... to err is to be human and to blindly argue that DIR divers are in some way incapable of making the occasional stupid mistake just reinforces the negative stereotypes that the anti-DIR lobby keep dragging out. Don't rise to it chaps...

[CALLISTO]

Just knew when I saw the title of the thread how this would end up .....and the same old people ....A certain coast guard etc ....Yawn

[Ahmed Adly]

Originally Posted by Andy the Coastie

FOR YOUR INFORMATION. i was enjoying the excellent write up by AL , which he was explaining lots of things to settle the ANTI HATE camp with divers v's DIR divers...... and his calm approach to the eliteism that some thing they have.

Yes, a great one is needed to bring balance to the force.....

[dry suit diver]

Originally Posted by Andy the Coastie
FOR YOUR INFORMATION. i was enjoying the excellent write up by AL , which he was explaining lots of things to settle the ANTI HATE camp with divers v's DIR divers...... and his calm approach to the eliteism that some thing they have.




I have to say that of all the DIR divers I have met , none of them have been elitist. the only elitest ones I have met are the DIR wannabees who would struggle to pass fundies.


DSD who is not GUE trained and has no aspirations to be DIR.