Just Having A Laugh!!!!

[neilh]

A bit more selective quoting

Originally Posted by Sixsquid

My inference was regarding an approach of some to foist they're beliefs on me in that way, expecting me to blindly follow like in a religious sect. Without any due consideration, conversation, explanation .... just "do it like this "

Originally Posted by Scubee

'Why' is one of my most used words. I will question things until I know the reason behind a decision, a method, or in this case, a peice of kit.
I like getting the esplanation before I have to ask why

I find it interesting that there seems to be a wide perception that DIR divers just do what they're told to do and use what kit they're told to use. As Garf says there's quite an emphasis on the "why" as part of the GUE training and one of the aims is to produce what they call a "thinking diver". (That's not to say that other agencies don't before we get into that one! )

The point is that whilst there are standards for kit config, procedures, gases, etc that you'll find DIR divers adopting and following - you are encouraged to challenge the reasoning behind the selections and to reach an understanding of that reasoning. If you understand it and it makes sense then it can appear to those outside that you're just doing the same as everyone else... which is kind of the point

If it doesn't make sense or you disagree/don't like something then that's fine , perhaps DIR just isn't suited to you.

To get the most out of fundies you really need to give the whole lot a fair chance so that you get the full picture and can make up your mind from there. Instructors are usually able to sort out kit for courses so you don't have to buy all DIR kit just to do the course.

The Discover DIR days are more informal sessions with no kit requirements, no cost and no constraints. They are about people being able to come along and see the kit config, see the in-water stuff, find out more about DIR and GUE and ask whatever questions they want. I think people are finding these useful so we'll keep running them

[Garf]

Originally Posted by SoggyFox

oh please its the fucking internet!

good point, well made.

[NotDeadYet]

Originally Posted by Garf

The only reason we don't use them now is we don't believe the technology is in place to make them as safe as we would want them to be. In 5-10 years I would hope they would be.

The WKPP were using Mk15's a looooooong time ago... powered by 3 cells and analogue electronics

Mind you, even with it's 40yr old design it still beats most commercially available RB's performance figures today

[JasonP]

Originally Posted by neilh

I find it interesting that there seems to be a wide perception that DIR divers just do what they're told to do

No, they're told what to think instead, which is why so many of them trot out exactly the same justifications for really marginal decisions, often even using Americanisms like "doubles" or "ocean diving".

Originally Posted by neilh

If it doesn't make sense or you disagree/don't like something then that's fine , perhaps DIR just isn't suited to you.

Yes, you all have to think the same way. Baaaaaa.

In contrast, on my cave diving course, my instructor insisted that the most important thing about my kit was that I was 100% happy with it and felt I could rely on it. Ditto my ability to safely get out of there. Conformance was a secondary issue.

Jason

[neilh]

Originally Posted by SoggyFox

but all agencies give standard kit, standard gases, standard procedures its not a DIR thing exclusively. The exclusive DIR thing is thhe anal attention to detail and the following to the letter.

Ok, bit confused by this - if other agencies also have standard procedures then how do they cope with me turning up and, for example, wanting to do a valve shutdown in a different way? Either the standard is so open and flexible that it isn't really standard any more or I have to accept that for that course/agency I need to follow their standards.

As for attention to detail and following standards to the letter - is that a bad thing? Again, if you don't follow the standards, are they still standards?

Originally Posted by SoggyFox

but it still doesn't convince me that DIR can't except RB's and they will in time. First it was big no-no, now its a 'we're looking at it',

I'd agree completely. As I understand it the initial position was because the risks and the quality of the equipment far outweighed any benefits. As the technology and quality progresses then I fully expect GUE to change their position. Right now the RB80 is the only unit that is "endorsed" by GUE - and from reading Clare and Al's reports it's a pretty grudging endorsement!

Originally Posted by SoggyFox

and i pray that its not a Halcyon RB and nothing else.

It's likely to be unless another manufacturer comes up with a unit that ticks all the boxes. You see a variety of wings and torches now

Originally Posted by SoggyFox

oh please its the f**king internet!

Good point

[NotDeadYet]

Originally Posted by Garf

has any DIR diver actually ever posted that outside of humour/windup. That sort of comment gets quoted all of the time as being the thing that winds people up, and I'm yet to to be pointed at a DIR diver who has said it, despite asking erveytime I see the comment!

Yep, they have. You obviously were never on the Techdiver list, it happened all the time. It's quite handy that the archives have vanished as there were quite a lot of divers who should know better (DIR & otherwise) making tits of themselves on a daily basis.

There were a few occasions when DIR divers attacked rebreather divers on Scuba-UK as well. And to be fair vice versa.

There were diving forums before YD, DIR-X and Sponsorworld, hard as that is to believe

Oh and NAUI were teaching DIR before GUE was...

[Garf]

Originally Posted by NotDeadYet

Yep, they have. You obviously were never on the Techdiver list, it happened all the time. It's quite handy that the archives have vanished as there were quite a lot of divers who should know better (DIR & otherwise) making tits of themselves on a daily basis.

There were a few occasions when DIR divers attacked rebreather divers on Scuba-UK as well. And to be fair vice versa.

There were diving forums before YD, DIR-X and Sponsorworld, hard as that is to believe

well, everyone knows there were knob-heads doing it in the past. However, the impression from the comments is that it is still happening. that is what I question. I'm happy to be proved wrong on this, but no-one ever seems ot be able to point me in the direction of a DIR diver saying it!

[Garf]

Originally Posted by JasonP

No, they're told what to think instead, which is why so many of them trot out exactly the same justifications for really marginal decisions, often even using Americanisms like "doubles" or "ocean diving".

Yes, you all have to think the same way. Baaaaaa.

In contrast, on my cave diving course, my instructor insisted that the most important thing about my kit was that I was 100% happy with it and felt I could rely on it. Ditto my ability to safely get out of there. Conformance was a secondary issue.

Jason

bollox, I must have missed the course where they tell you what to think. When does that happen. Perhaps you meant that they explain how to do things according to the standard and then let you make up your own mind whether or not to adopt it. the mind-washing bastards.

[SoggyFox]

Originally Posted by neilh

Ok, bit confused by this - if other agencies also have standard procedures then how do they cope with me turning up and, for example, wanting to do a valve shutdown in a different way? Either the standard is so open and flexible that it isn't really standard any more or I have to accept that for that course/agency I need to follow their standards.

the aim is to safely shut down the valves and conserve your gas in an emergency situation, many agencies teach how to shut the valves and an order to do it, you'll more than likely find they're very similar with only minor differences. Your standard states you follow the identical process end to end with no digression from the approved standard, pretty much like a standard from any other agency.

if you turned up and said "i want to shut my valves this way and this way only" my reaction would be along the lines of "Ok no problems, if it works to save your life, i don't care if your technique diverges from mine in minor details".

[Mal Bridgeman]

Originally Posted by SoggyFox

the aim is to safely shut down the valves and conserve your gas in an emergency situation, many agencies teach how to shut the valves and an order to do it, you'll more than likely find they're very similar with only minor differences. Your standard states you follow the identical process end to end with no digression from the approved standard, pretty much like a standard from any other agency.

if you turned up and said "i want to shut my valves this way and this way only" my reaction would be along the lines of "Ok no problems, if it works to save your life, i don't care if your technique diverges from mine in minor details".

but now you have shutdown you'll want your buddy to help fix the problem so the dive can continue won't you? Why not make it easy for him by making the valves easily accessible and in a state he might expect to find them?
Mal