All mouth and no trousers?

[Dominic]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]It is funny how no-one who has actually dived the full DIR kit is ever a proponent of anything else

Have you READ this thread..?

Scan back a few pages and read that one by Dalesdiver - where he mentions right-mounted stages and using an Inspiration.

[RobK]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Mark Chase @ Nov. 07 2003,12:57)] I made a mistake on the last one. It was Sparticat not Nauticat. Here is a link to the incident I based my scenario on

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~indigo/deco.htm

I had a read of the report and the following sentance appears fairly early on...

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]
Only one diver surfaces. He left his buddy, Paul, early on in the dive

This is where it all went wrong isn't it? The whole incident would have been avoided if they'd stayed together and the hele could have stayed on the ground.

This isn't an example of why _not_ to dive DIR but a bloody good one of why you should.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]
Deep (by my standards) long hang deco dives and wreck penetration is my thing. I have had to alter my equipment to suit the dives I am doing for reasons based on my experience and on the experience of others in my circle who do the same sort of diving. This has highlighted some problems with the restrictions imposed on DIR divers and formed the basis for my point of view.

I know you've probably mentioned it before but what changes exactly did you feel you needed to make?

Not flaming/having a go but genuinely curious.

Cheers,
Rob.

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Dave Williamson @ Nov. 07 2003,12:48)]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]You seem set on believing that a DIR rig is not compatible with UK diving.. DIR divers are diving in your neck of the woods all of the time and they are diving on the same wrecks that you say are unachievable using a DIR rig, these guys are all experienced mix divers of many years and one is even a GUE instructor..

I NEVER said that. I said that a fixed inflexible attitude to diving full stop couldn’t be suited to ALL diving. I was asked for specific examples and I have given a couple. I have loads more fact based scenarios if you want?

Unachievable??   Who said that? One of the dives we regularly see on our trips dives 50m on a single 300bar 12 and a pony. I strongly disagree with his choice of rig but he gets the job done and has done for years. One of the Teem Delta mob still does 70 -80m dives on Air and he has been diving for 30 years He is a retired commercial diver with 1000's of logged dives. So that proves it then, deep air is safe??

I see all sorts of rigs on the boat and I think blimey should he be doing this dive with that rig. We don’t say anything the dive goes ahead and 99.5% of the time the diver gets away with it. Look at the case of Chris Rouse and Chrissy Rouse. Experienced and respected cave divers with 700+ dives but you cant help reading the book and thinking Christ they had totally the wrong equipment and system for that dive and it killed them.

Whilst DIR is suited to most UK diving it is not best suited to ALL UK diving that was my point and I have used specific case scenarios to prove my point. Just like DIR do to prove theirs.

As for the Chassey rig I don’t think there is one single Chase invention / concept on my rig. It all came about thanks mainly to George Bartlet (a DIR diver) and Pete Kemp with a little bit of every one else thrown in for good measure.


 

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]If it makes you feel better (as you seem to think that everything is cast in stone) GI3 himself has taken EPIRBS on dives when he's believed it necessary. Remember the mantra 'Only take what you need' if it's necessary for a particular dive then it will be taken, no one is expected to put themselves in danger to fit a perceived style or standard.... this is only a belief held by those who love to spend far too much time and effort trying to pull down DIR

If that’s the case then I misunderstood Bob when he said EPIRBS were not DIR or perhaps Bob didn’t know this.
Lets hope this sensible and flexible approach to diving filters down to the rank and file DIR.

I am not trying to pull down DIR, I am merely discussing some of the points I find less than clear or that I cannot live with in my diving. DIR say every one else is wrong and we are Doing It Right so surely it is we non-DIR types who are responding to DIR pulling down other options in dive rig and equipment choice?

As I said its just an opinion and I am open to being convinced I am wrong and welcome anything that makes my diving safer and more enjoyable.

ATB

Mark Chase

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Lanny @ Nov. 07 2003,12:52)]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Mark who said "unless you are close family, you are on your own", which is not the attitude of someone I want to be below 60m with, no matter how many EPIRBs he has.

This is somewhat out of context and you need to reed the rest of that thread before it makes sense.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]As Andy pointed out, all Mark's contrived scenarios could have been avoided by using a proper dive plan and integrating the boat skipper into the team.  The entrapment tale would appear at first glance to justify using a deep travel gas, however, if you are monitoring your gas properly and more importantly not swimming around unstable wrecks then the incident will not happen in the first place.  Did the trapped diver have a crowbar in one hand and a lump hammer in the other by any chance?  Prevention is always better than cure.

You are correct. All the scenarios could be avoided by a plan that totally avoided diving

In the Chrissey case there was no lump hammer he was looking for a log book

All wrecks are dangerous, all wrecks are unstable, and all wreck entry is high risk. Buddy teems of two are the norm so lets stick to that scenario for now. Monitoring your gas properly whilst trying to dig your dive buddy out from under wreckage at 60m is a skill I have never quite been able to master my self. I ignorantly thought you pushed it to the max and then only when you realize its life or death for you too do you give up and head out. Someone who forgets to monitor his gas under such a high stress situation is obviously a numptie in your opinion and a human being in my opinion.

The Boat skipper has one instruction when we deploy a deco station. HE STAYS WITH THE STATION. When there are 10 divers on the station and two drifting off to sea you stick with the ten.

ATB

Mark Chase

[Davey Willo]

No Mark you have said in the past that a DIR rig is ok for Florida cave diving but not UK wreck diving, my comments were not based on just this post but from many in the past... anyway enough of all that crap... I believe you when you say "I am open to being convinced I am wrong and welcome anything that makes my diving safer and more enjoyable" Have you considered getting yourself on this Fundy course running at the end of November.. I really think you would take a lot from it, you seem very capable and willing to learn and maybe a good session of throwing questions at the likes of Andy G and Mike Kane might just help you understand things a little more or at least hopefully let you see that DIR isn't about being mindless clones... you might just come away rubbing your chin and thinking hmmmmm........

I'd love to see you there mate, I'd would actually enjoy and learn from your questioning of AG based on your experiences which I don't yet possess, so it would be a bonus for me... go on get yerself there, you know you'd enjoy it... even if it was only for the purpose of gaining ammunition for future debates

Best regards
Dave.  

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Dave Williamson @ Nov. 07 2003,13:53)]

I am booked on the intro day on the 29th November but I cant face going all the way up there for the full course I will wait until I make a decision on the CCR but if I stay OC I will opt for a course in the south possibly Weymouth again.

Like I said I am open minded and I have read all JJs books but I haven’t done any course yet so there is always the possibility I could be convinced on a lot of stuff.

In the meantime please don get upset with me playing devils advocate and putting forward my concerns over the system. If you don’t ask the questions you don’t learn.

Today I learnt that there is a possibility that EPERBS are OK to use with a DIR rig. If so my relationship with DIR just warmed up a bit.

ATB

Mark Chase

[Rupert Bear]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Lanny @ Nov. 07 2003,12:52)]It is funny how no-one who has actually dived the full DIR kit is ever a proponent of anything else.  I am yet to see any convincing, specific argument for replacing any aspect of a DIR rig with anything else.  There are a lot of "this works just as well, and hasn't killed me (yet)" arguments, but no properly thought out specifics.  Any takers?

I have yet to see a convincing specific argument for going DIR . this argument about DIR is "right" and the "you are still alive despite your kit, it is just a matter of time" line is why the system has such a bad name among so many people.
 The annoying thing about DIR is that it tried to get you both ways. This is the way to dive and if you don't agree and say why then you are wrong anyway and it is just a matter of time before you croak. What a crock!
The main advantage of DIR is having a COMMON config, not the actual config itself. Not a lot of use if you can't agree on one to use.
 The stupid thing about this whole argument on kit is that it is not even the issue that kills people. The main killer is attitude and lack of confidence and all the "right" kit in the world can't provide that.  
 I don't have a problem with the DIR config, don't think it is right but I don't feel anybody diving it is "unsafe" so why do DIR divers keep lecturing on how "unsafe" everybody else is?

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (RobK @ Nov. 07 2003,13:33)]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]I had a read of the report and the following sentance appears fairly early on...

This is where it all went wrong isn't it? The whole incident would have been avoided if they'd stayed together and the hele could have stayed on the ground.

This isn't an example of why _not_ to dive DIR but a bloody good one of why you should.

You missed the point. It was an example of someone using a reel as an up line. That is all. I made no comment on how the incident occured just that this was an example of that practice.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]I know you've probably mentioned it before but what changes exactly did you feel you needed to make?

Thats a big topic so perhaps I will post that later under Equipment.

ATB

Mark Chase

[RobK]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Mark Chase @ Nov. 07 2003,14:23)]<snip>

You missed the point. It was an example of someone using a reel as an up line. That is all. I made no comment on how the incident occured just that this was an example of that practice.

But my point was that they wouldn't have needed to use the reel as an upline if they hadn't seperated in the first place.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]<snip>

Thats a big topic so perhaps I will post that later under Equipment.

ATB

Mark Chase

Ok fair enough  

Cheers,
Rob.

[And]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Rupert Bear @ Nov. 07 2003,14:15)] I don't have a problem with the DIR config, don't think it is right but I don't feel anybody diving it is "unsafe" so why do DIR divers keep lecturing on how "unsafe" everybody else is?

<font color='#000080'>Hi

Please point me to any thread on this forum which was started by a DIR diver lecturing about unsafe divers.

The point is Rupert that you DO have a problem about DIR or you wouldn't post.

You asked about the rule number one thing and now you are saying that you are being lectured to. You are asking about kit and demanding any DIR diver to defend why it is configured the way it is which I am happy to do as it reinforces my own understanding.

What I am not happy to do is allow myself to get dragged into a personal namecalling session. (I have a girlfriend for that ) As usual all that happens is one person may post some small soundbite which is immediately jumped on to fit your own arguments and parade DIR in a negative manner which is simply not true. All DIR divers I have met are very positive about diving and about divers. Has any DIR diver questioned your choices about why your kit is configured the way it is with as much indignance as you seem to?

Your comments about kit not killing people coincides with mine. I also do not believe that kit saves people either. All of the killing and saving is done before you hit the water. I've said it before but you are your own worst failure point.

Andy