All mouth and no trousers?

[Finless]

Despite the slightly inflamatory Topic Title, this is a genuine question.

As I understand it some of the DIR kit choices, if not dictated by, are certainly influenced by potential failure points (one piece harness, fin straps etc). Are there any statistics available from the DIR agencies on instances of where things have failed thereby supporting their choices.

I have opened several polls on YD on the subject. Unfortunately the results are from a relatively narrow section of the diving population and, as such, the results are of limited value.

The purpose of this question is so that I can get a more realistic (based on statistics?) view on the likelyhood of suffering a problem.

Further, does anyone know if there is anywhere that this kind of data can be found (if not available from GUE etc).

[Mr T.]

Hey Fin,

Shouldn't that read: 'All Mouth and Speedos' ??  

[Dr Stevil]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Finless @ Oct. 30 2003,13:25)]The purpose of this question is so that I can get a more realistic (based on statistics?) view on the likelyhood of suffering a problem.

Normally I wouldn't post in the DIR section, but to address your question:  Frankly, I doubt it...    The essence of DIR/GUE is conformity, asking for stats would probably be seen as challenging "the accepted wisdom", which AFAICS is based on anecdotes and conjecture.  

Anyway, as can be seen from other threads/polls, the actual occurence of "failures" is apparently miniscule: I've been diving for 6 years and to date have had one free-flow (November in Crap n rainy), which was a result of me tweaking my reg settings the evening before. I've seen one HP hose go (old club kit, in the pool) .
Never had any problems with straps or buckles breaking etc etc etc. Once had a leaky o-ring (a-clamp) whilst kitting up, once had a sticky BCD inflator whilst kitting up. In fact, never seen any real in-water problems even with crappy tired old branch hire equipment, apart from a few free-flowing 20 year old pool regs.

Plus you've highlighted the big issue yourself ie the "relatively narrow section", this is the problem with all-or-nothing concepts, the real world tends to operate in shades of grey.

Chee-az
Steve

[John Gulliver]

I have to agree with Steve (I usually do ). I've had fin straps and mask straps break, BC inflators freeze, HP hoses burst (twice – very exciting!), regs free-flow etc when kitting up but the only failure I can recall under water is one free-flow, and that's during over 1300 dives, under conditions ranging from minus 7-8 degrees air temp here in Sweden to plus 40 in the tropics. The problems I've had have been due to human error (= my own stupidity), not kit failure.

[Finless]

Steve,

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Normally I wouldn't post in the DIR section, but to address your question:  Frankly, I doubt it...    The essence of DIR/GUE is conformity, asking for stats would probably be seen as challenging "the accepted wisdom", which AFAICS is based on anecdotes and conjecture.

I just wondered if there were any data to backup the DIR kit choices. I can understand that in a cave environment in  enclosed (very) spaces any form of kit failure is v/worrying. Having identified potential weak spots I can see the logic of saying "not in a cave environment" and then saying "why have them in any diving environment". Anyway, I am covering old well trodden ground.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Anyway, as can be seen from other threads/polls, the actual occurence of "failures" is apparently miniscule: I've been diving for 6 years and to date have had one free-flow (November in Crap n rainy), which was a result of me tweaking my reg settings the evening before. I've seen one HP hose go (old club kit, in the pool) .
Never had any problems with straps or buckles breaking etc etc etc. Once had a leaky o-ring (a-clamp) whilst kitting up, once had a sticky BCD inflator whilst kitting up. In fact, never seen any real in-water problems even with crappy tired old branch hire equipment, apart from a few free-flowing 20 year old pool regs.

I agree with you. The results of any such "failure statistics" would not make me change my kit config, just indicate I should maybe check certain bits more thoroughly/often.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Plus you've highlighted the big issue yourself ie the "relatively narrow section", this is the problem with all-or-nothing concepts, the real world tends to operate in shades of grey.

By definition, something has either failed or not - I am not too worried about the degree of failure, just whether it did or not.

In fact, I am not particularly worried abt kit failure happening to me as a) it rarely happens, IME and b) I know and practice what to do if it does. I just wondered if there were any stats available.

Rgds
Bryan

[Mark Chase]

I agree with the others on this the possibility of most of these failures is miniscule. That said I think doing away with suicide clips is a good idea for wreck divers and there are definitely bits of kit I would alter for cave diving.

As an example I would get spring clips for my fins. If I break a fin strap in the sea its no big deal but if you lost a fin strap in a cave and had to fin back out it could be disastrous.

That’s the primary failing of DIR IMHO in that it is not possible to efficiently configure kit and procedures for both ocean and cave diving the environments are too different. For this reason we look at some of the so-called failure points from an OW perspective and they don’t make sense. I suspect if I were into cave diving I would have a very DIR looking rig.

ATB

Mark Chase

[Ben Harris]

<font color='#8D38C9'>Most of the stats used were from accident anaysis reports of cave diving fatalities. Sheck Exley did one - resulted in the first cave diving manual, I think Steve Berman did one later. I presume they are still done by NCS, etc.

Guess people learned from mistakes years ago which is why gear is better made or designed. Most of the clips stuff comes originally from cave training and later gue. Guess if I was 30,000 ft into a cave on a scooter I wouldnt want a plastic clip breaking.

[Tim Ingmire]

Mark,

I understand what you are saying about cave vs OW diving but, if the Cave-diving rig is the more 'cautious' why not use it in OW? &nbsp;What changes from a cave diving rig would you think were prudent to take it into OW? &nbsp;Also, what are the key difference between Cave and wreck diving in your view (suicide clips aside)

Cheers,

TIm

[Dominic]

Scuba gear is very reliable, so virtually anything you do to make a rig safer is going to be next to impossible to justify via statistics.

But then, statistically, Nitrox is no safer than air for recreational dives. Does that stop us from thinking Nitrox to be a safer gas than air?

[Finless]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Dominic @ Oct. 30 2003,15:31)]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]But then, statistically, Nitrox is no safer than air for recreational dives. Does that stop us from thinking Nitrox to be a safer gas than air?

Who cares, it's the longer bottom times that are important. &nbsp;