Illegal dive charter boats?

[David Wallace]

Originally Posted by Andy the Commie 2

A mate of mine e:mailed me this



Anglers more clued up?

My husband runs a licensed charter vessel and takes parties of up to 10 sea anglers and divers out around Oban and the Sound of Mull, on the west coast of Scotland. Some angling clubs make it clear that they will not book with us unless we can satisfy them that we are correctly licensed and that they will be covered by adequate insurance.
They also seem to be on the ball about where to check such details. In our experience, the anglers also understand that what is included in the charter cost reflects the required standards of safety.
Dive clubs more often than not do not appear to be as informed or to care about licence standards with guaranteed insurance and safety certificates. Nor do most understand what constitutes a charter - how many divers realise that it is illegal for anyone with a boat without a licence to accept payment, even a few quid for fuel, to carry passengers?
The British Sub-Aqua Club was part of the committee that drafted current licence charter conditions, so I am surprised that some divers appear to be less clued up than anglers!
Elaine Lauder, Benderloch, Oban


made me chuckle

I'm not suprised Andy, round here the anglers all seem to know whats what. there are far more of them than dive boats as well - all legal

[Angleseyskipper]

the crux of the problem skipper is enforcement or the total lack of.
know locally as the toothless tigers
we have reported illegal boats in the past but don't bother now cos its a waste of time they just aren't intrested.

the problem is marine law its got to be 100% clear cut before they will prosecute due to manpower ,funds etc
correct me if i'm wrong but the south coast fare's no better i hear
we had a "cracking" sorry incident up here a few weeks ago.
one of the local charter angling boats at anchor had been boarded at sea by an MCA survey team and while they were on it going thru his saftey gear a 40 ft yacht ploughed into his port side at 8 knots in broad daylight and good vizability while on autopilot and no watch!
the damage to the hard boat was that bad that the life boat took off all the fishermen and stood by as he limped in.

for obvious reasons can't mention any fine details but it wasn't a very good example of promoting safety at sea!
as for the club thing the last i read about it was joining the "club" , 6 boat dives a year ,club accounts /records,bit of safety gear etc which didn't amount to much and you could easily work round it without being prosecuted for operating on a commercial basis ,since they have to prove you are.
the other thing a rib is so mobile how would you police it
have they altered it all to close the loop hole?
being a commercial rib operator i can imagine this is a real thorn in your side
as for a combined disc its got to be the simplest and best way to end all this confusion.
you have umteen licencing authourities each playing by there own rules most issue diamonds some like you say the RYA don't its a shambles.
a single dated disc with the boats licence ,skippers quals and photo etc would tell people with out even asking if the boat was up to scratch.
glad i got that off me chest you can't beat a good rant!
as for the NFCS enough said.
elfyn

[Andy the Coastie]

Seeing privately owned boat skippers taken the same money off the divers as to my rates.

I fully understand that clubs with boats need to re-coup running costs. BUT having a set dive fee on display for all to see, is not the way to go. I have yet to see ANY dive clubs consition stating that " Whilst you are a member of the " XYZ " club, that you are a shareholder of the clubs equipment, compressor and vessel ".
Now, as i was a member of my club. being a share holder of the equipment etc etc , should i ask for my share of the profits made ?

Quailifications and experience.
I have over the years , well since the age of 8 built up my experience on things that float of all shapes and sizes, slow and very fast,, YES, i got paid for the jobs i done and was lucky to have employment to gain me the quail's..... Bloody hell, sea miles i had to do in a COMMAND position just so the RYA can say " your a yacthmaster ".
BSAC of course let you command a vessel as CAPTAIN for just doing a 2 day course...........and now saying that you could command a hard boat with the BSAC Boat Handling ticket.

Will i be grassing people up the the MCA, No , as it has been said , they do not do anything....... But as i understand it , there is going to be a MCA boat stationed here at Dover as from next year, will i be pointing them in the right direction , TOO BLOODY RIGHT.

I know who this is, one of the local boats called the Gannet. Don't know Elaine but do know Adrian the skipper.
She is being a bit misleading however. It is perfectly legal to take money for fuel as long as it is genuine shared expenses. Taking people for profit is another thing altogether.
I can understand Dive skippers getting a bit upset about folk taking charters when not up to grade as obviously getting all the boxes ticked costs money and seeing others doing it without putting out the cash would get my goat as well.
However you can legally and safely operate a dive boat non commercially even if the professionals would like you not to

[David Wallace]

Originally Posted by Andy the Commie 2

Seeing privately owned boat skippers taken the same money off the divers as to my rates.

I fully understand that clubs with boats need to re-coup running costs. BUT having a set dive fee on display for all to see, is not the way to go. I have yet to see ANY dive clubs consition stating that " Whilst you are a member of the " XYZ " club, that you are a shareholder of the clubs equipment, compressor and vessel ".
Now, as i was a member of my club. being a share holder of the equipment etc etc , should i ask for my share of the profits made ?

Andy - members clubs dont actually make a profit - they have contribution to members funds, slightly different and no you cant ask for anything back. As for the constitution, look again any club who would qualify legaly as a members club will have all the assets owned by all the members but your not a shareholder - its not a business.

Take a look at the licensing laws for and the criteria for a "club" getting a bar licence.... the MCA have not made anything new up, there proposals are basically to take the existing legislation and criteria and apply it to diving clubs. If they can satisfy the requirements for the bar licence then will be seen to be a bonifide club.

Mind you - as its been said before - its all down to the enforcement - which is sh!t they only seem to bother boarding licenced boats for compliance checks and ignor illegal boats a few meters away

regards

[David Wallace]

Originally Posted by RubberBoy

However you can legally and safely operate a dive boat non commercially even if the professionals would like you not to

Totally agree, there are possible more non commercially run dive boats in the UK than commercially! most are running legally and safely - thats not the issue here.

We could of course start a new thread and post a few pictures of "CLUB" boats ..... lets say a 4.5m RIB with 8 fully kitted divers on the mullberry in a F2 -3. satationary the waterline was above the rubbing strake and when underway every wave came over the front Not safe I suggest but possibly legal because clubs dont have to comply with the codes although the recreational craft directive requires all recreational boats to be plated with max design loads..... its a moot point if overloading is breaking a law and anyway, as usual, whos going to enforce it?

[Andy the Coastie]

Originally Posted by Skipper

Totally agree, there are possible more non commercially run dive boats in the UK than commercially! most are running legally and safely - thats not the issue here.

We could of course start a new thread and post a few pictures of "CLUB" boats ..... lets say a 4.5m RIB with 8 fully kitted divers on the mullberry in a F2 -3. satationary the waterline was above the rubbing strake and when underway every wave came over the front Not safe I suggest but possibly legal because clubs dont have to comply with the codes although the recreational craft directive requires all recreational boats to be plated with max design loads..... its a mot point if overloading is breaking a law and anyway, as usual, whos going to enforce it?

Originally Posted by Skipper

its a mot point if overloading is breaking a law and anyway, as usual, whos going to enforce it?

Personally, CHARTER SKIPPERS...........

By taken photos and details then building a case, then going in force to the MCA Enforcement officer & also send to the clubs agency.

Christ , they are happy to take pleasure craft motor boaters to court for not obeying rule 5, putting thier craft high and dry on some rocks.

surely overloaded club boats come into the same cat..............

BSAC don't let you command anything after a boathandling course. In fact the basic course doesn't even qualify to to do anything as it is only a familiarisation course and equivalent to RYA1.

What is being confused here is the fact that up to 21m? you do not need ANY qualifications unless you are commercially using the boat.

I laughed when I saw the info about the 8 divers in the 4.5m, I only take 4 and my boat is almost a metre longer and I wouldn't say we were rolling about with loads of room

Reporting folk to their agency isn't always possible, nearly all the boats locally here are non affiliated. I know that if a charter skipper reported myself or most of the others they would just get a "two fingered salute" as thanks

While I can see that telling the MCA about absurdly unsafe boating is acceptable and letting them enforce/warn the perpetrators, reporting everyone and anyone because you don't agree with what they have decided to do is not your responsibility.

It is hard to put hard and fast rules on any of the choices for personal boats as most of it really comes down to the choice of the skipper on the day based on his experience, unfortunately some have none or seem to lack common sense.

[David Wallace]

Originally Posted by RubberBoy

BSAC don't let you command anything after a boathandling course. In fact the basic course doesn't even qualify to to do anything as it is only a familiarisation course and equivalent to RYA1..

agreed

Originally Posted by RubberBoy

What is being confused here is the fact that up to 21m? you do not need ANY qualifications unless you are commercially using the boat..

agreed but its 24m, about 4 years ago the EU implimeted a law which required "ALL" bot drivers to have a international certificate of competance (basically a RYA level II) The UK excercised its opt out and we are now the only country in Europe which does not require even the most basic training before going to sea in a recreational capacity. But even recreational users need to be careful..... a lot (most) of the marine insurers have a clause in the small print stating that the insurance is only valid whilst a qualified person is in charge - this is later quantified as RYA level II

Originally Posted by RubberBoy

I laughed when I saw the info about the 8 divers in the 4.5m, I only take 4 and my boat is almost a metre longer and I wouldn't say we were rolling about with loads of room .

It was a giggle at the time, although to be honest we were quite concerned and offered to let half of them onto my boat whilst some were kitting up

Originally Posted by RubberBoy

Reporting folk to their agency isn't always possible, nearly all the boats locally here are non affiliated. I know that if a charter skipper reported myself or most of the others they would just get a "two fingered salute" as thanks .

Agreed, reporting is not always the right thing to do, especially to agencies, basically, if your private then you can do what you like. its up to you and I have no interst other than from a safety point of view. If I see something that is blatently unsafe I feel that I have a moral responsibility to address it. Not (in the private user case) through reporting, but by having a quiet consrtuctive chat.........

Originally Posted by RubberBoy

While I can see that telling the MCA about absurdly unsafe boating is acceptable and letting them enforce/warn the perpetrators, reporting everyone and anyone because you don't agree with what they have decided to do is not your responsibility..

Agreed again, unless your protecting your own business and reporting others who are perating commercially without the correct licences Question.... If your next door neighbour 16 year old son was driving an untaxed uninsured vehicle whilst underage what would you do....... after talking to the parents and getting nowhere? would you report it to the police or turn a blind eye?

Originally Posted by RubberBoy

It is hard to put hard and fast rules on any of the choices for personal boats as most of it really comes down to the choice of the skipper on the day based on his experience, unfortunately some have none or seem to lack common sense.

again agreed.... must stop agreeing

go on have some green no-ones arguing about private and club boats, the laws quite simply put them outside the coded vessel requirements so who are we to argue

Originally Posted by Skipper

Agreed again, unless your protecting your own business and reporting others who are perating commercially without the correct licences Question.... If your next door neighbour 16 year old son was driving an untaxed uninsured vehicle whilst underage what would you do....... after talking to the parents and getting nowhere? would you report it to the police or turn a blind eye?

The car thing is blatantly illegal so it depends on what you are comparing it to, private or commercial boats?