Are current checks on divers' cert's/experience too lax?

[dave archer]

The question is too vague.

Should places selling nitrox/trimix/o2 check certs before doing so? Probably. I think people should know the dangers of storage, transport etc, as well as diving these gases, and a cert, whilst not perfect, shows they have at least been taught this once upon a time.

Should skippers be responsible for checking diver certs when they turn up at the boat? No - certs alone mean very little when it comes to "is this person able to do this dive, today". There's no way a skipper can be responsible for judging whether someone is up to the dive or not - and god forbid held responsible if they prove not to be! - so I say let's stick with the water taxi and personal responsibility idea.

Of course if a skipper, or anyone else on the boat off to dive the 50m wreck, can clearly see that the OW chap hasn't had his ancient kit out of the cupboard for donkies, they should have a quiet word (and the good ones do) but if we make it their responsibility it's becomes either unworkable, inneffective, or both.

Dave.

[wreckweasel]

Originally Posted by The Purist

And BTW the day I get forced to join a diving club is the day I sell my kit.

ten dollah?

[Mr T.]

Originally Posted by tom

I don't think it's the skipper's responsibility to look after me. I think the model that says the skipper is a taxi driver, and what I do in the water is none of his/her business, is the best.

The taxi 'model' is inaccurate, perhaps misleading, but deffo overly simplitic. You make it his business when you step on to his boat; and not for a quick 10 mins across town, but for the duration of sometimes (e.g. deep mix dives) for hours for the dive and hours for the deco to elapse. He is charged (by maritime law and marine charter) with both getting you to the site and bringing you back safely, have O2 onboard, be proficient in its use, be an EMFR'er and have his shit together - not something 'taxis' are required to do by law or charter in the UK.

And if he even suspects that you or anyone on that boat is diving outside their 'safety and/or experience zone or mix' etc. then he'd be a fool to let them dive from the boat in the first place. So being "none of his business" is wildly inappropriate as, if something goes wrong with a diver, he still gets the full board of enquiry and HSE norz and as yet they don't allow the "I was just a water taxi" defence.

Originally Posted by Tom

Divers and/or clubs should take responsibility for themselves: A commercial skipper is not a dive marshall or DO.

Asking to see someone's certs is not being a DO or Marshall - to the skipper, it's something far more vital: it's safe-guarding the arses of his livelihood (his boating business) and perhaps being a substitute for the lack of CDF shown the diver(s) in question.

Like I say, you can't get on a bus without a ticket - why should a dive boat (where far more's at risk) be any different?

[PrettyFishies]

Agreed Purist. I've never been in a club and don't see the need to be in one, similarly I don't have people dictating whom I will dive with and I don't dive with unknown quantities, I either dive solo (I trust myself) or I dive with people I rate as being competent, not some agency or club.

[chrisch]

Originally Posted by dave archer

... certs alone mean very little when it comes to "is this person able to do this dive, today". ..

Yup.

I think that is the key.....

Chris

[nigelH]

Well I voted "Enough checks are made" because I've never been asked for a card in the UK and that feels just about right to me. There are skippers of whom I would actively ask for advice and not hold them responsible if on the day it wasn't so good and others I prefer to just drive the boat please.

All this banging on about insurance and poor little Timmy is irrelevant to the skippers checking cards question, that's down to your own personal insurance and not the skipper's business. If I hired the boat for diving and we plan to dive the XX tell me if the weather makes it a bad move but if if I chose to go in the water I chose and nobody made me do it. If considerations of the site, personal competance and poor little Timmy mean I shouldn't have dived that day it was my fault.

[tom]

Originally Posted by Mr T.

The taxi 'model' is inaccurate

Take a look a the 02 kit thread, and Skipper's first post on it - here's the most relevant bit:

Charter boats operating inthe Uk are classed in Law as water taxis - what you do at each end of the trip is up to you. The only exception to this is where the charter offers additional services such as tuition, compressor services, hire of equipment (actually on the boat)

I would venture to suggest he knows what he's talking about. Input from the other guys on here who run boats would be informative.

Like I say, you can't get on a bus without a ticket - why should a dive boat (where far more's at risk) be any different?

My 'bus ticket' is the charter fee. In the same way as it's not the skipper's job to check my dive plan or the mix in my tanks or whatever, it's not the bus driver's job to stop me sitting on the top deck of the bus and stabbing myself repeatedly in the head with a fork.

I agree with the general points you are making re getting appropriate training and certification, but it's not the skipper's job to enforce that.

[The Purist]

Bren

The boats that I use/book all have a clear statement that 'divers dive at their own risk' or similar - this is part of their printed terms and conditions which are accepted as part of the contract when someone signs the booking form.

The person booking the boat then has the option to pass this caveat on to the group, or to accept that responsibility themselves and do the checking. If the boat is chartered by a commerical organisation then they have a duty of care to the people that book through them - if it's private individuals then there is no such duty.

Sure, common sense and public spirit do come into the equation, but there is a clear indication that they aren't going to check my badges and stickers when I get on board.

[Mr T.]

Originally Posted by PrettyFishies

Agreed Purist. I've never been in a club and don't see the need to be in one, similarly I don't have people dictating whom I will dive with and I don't dive with unknown quantities, I either dive solo (I trust myself) or I dive with people I rate as being competent, not some agency or club.

All admirable stuff and I know personally that you're nigh-on bullet-proof in terms of redundancy and bail-out when you go diving, and you've also got a healthy mix of certs, mentoring and experience behind you - but that's not the question on the table.

No one's asking or demanding that join a club or dive with one; no one's insisting that you dive with 'whom they say' etc.

But you, or anyone like you can't be shocked if, hypothetically, one day a skipper turns round in port, knowing the general kinds of profiles the boat's complement will be doing that day and asks to see certs. And you and the rest of the divers onboard wil either have them on you or not.

Like I say, I see it more of personal responsibility (to you and others) gig and then a matter of the skipper safe-guarding his business whilst avoiding the all too litigious society we live in today. Why should a skipper carry the can for someone else's inability/laziness etc. to be/get qualified for the profiles they might be doing?? I don't think it's fair in the least.

[D.D.J]

just because i ve always haf to show my cert. to different places to dive