Qualifications for skippers

[Angleseyskipper]

Originally Posted by Scuby

Why? Just out of interest... Surely its better that the boat is more highly rated than what it's used for, presumably a 60mile boat will have extra safety equipment etc?

David

And the same should apply to the skipper do you not think ? .
its just my opinion, if the yachtmaster is surpose to be the highest badge required to skipper a charter vessel under 24m then why not make it the same across the board .

[jennybettle]

Originally Posted by Yellow Butty Box

most current new licences are issued by the RYA, minimum being Power boat level II with commercially endorsed power stamped on it and in date.
can't say i'm over impressed with the weight of this badge.
If you have the skippers full name & address i'm sure you can ring the RYA up and check.
there are still some old boatmaster skippers tickets floating about but these are limited to 3miles out and 15mile down coast from port not worth a w--k these days/
As for matching the licence to the boat well this is were it gets daft.
if you licence your boat for 60miles then you will need a yachtmaster commercially endorsed power to do the distance of over 20miles
However you can still run a 60mile ticket boat on a 20mile skipper ticket if you stay within the 20 restriction.

IMO if you run a 60mile coded boat then your skippers licence should match the boats.
why they piss about with all different skipper quals is a mystery to me.
it would be far easier just to make it all the same,if ya want a commercial badge then do the yachtmaster simple.
there will always be illegal operations usually because of cheap prices .
Mca guy told me on my last inspection that generally there was more of a problem with unqualified skippers than unlicenced boats.
hope that helps
elfyn

so does this mean you can leagly skipper a 12m boat with a level 2 or adv power boat comercialy endorsed ticket as long as you stay within the distance from a safe port stated on the qualification ?


how would this affect the boats insurance if there was an accident?

[Kanga]

As I understand it, the regulations governing who can and can't drive commercially, and what they can and can't drive, are a bit more blurred than this. I looked into it recently when I was almost run over by a gin palace off Plymouth last season, and I've been chatting to an Advance powerboat instructor - don't take any of this as gospel, though; it's just my understanding of a really grey area.

Scarily, anyone who wants to own & drive a boat can do so (if they can afford it). I don't think there are any compulsory licences for owning or driving a boat for your own use. It's if you want to take paying customers on your boat that the regulations come into force.

The RYA offers 2 strands of training for boats with engines - powerboats (no wheelhouse, like your average diving RIB - oddities like Eclipse notwithstanding!) and cruisers (usually larger, with a wheelhouse, like your average diving hardboat), although if you only have powerboat training, there's nothing to stop you taking out a boat with a wheelhouse as long as you meet the restrictions in distance offshore and length of vessel.

An RYA level 2 powerboat ticket qualifies you to drive up to 3 miles from your point of departure, in a vessel up to a scary 24m long. Yes really - 24m. That means, for example, that you could mooch around inside Portland Harbour. If you want to take paying customers on that boat, you need to get a commercial endorsement from the MCA, which means you also need a DSC VHF radio licence, a sea survival ticket and a boatmaster's medical, as Hazel said. (I can't remember if you also need first aid ticket for this - check Hazel's answer.) Level 2 also doesn't cover you for night passages - you need to be Advanced for this. You can do all your level 2 training in a RIB then jump on a hardboat and, as long as you don't go more than 3 miles from wherever you left from, you're the boss.

An RYA Advanced powerboat ticket qualifies you to drive up to 20miles from a safe haven. Again, you need a commercial endorsement on this to take paying customers, and I think the pre-requisites to do the Adv course are 1000 logged hours of driving or a full season of driving commercially. And again, rather scarily, you can train to this level in a RIB and then I don't think there's anything legal to stop you jumping into a hardboat and driving that.

It's if you want to go more than 20 miles offshore that you actually need a Yachtmaster ticket, which is what Hazel was talking about, and it's that training that has to be done on a larger vessel with a wheelhouse.

It seems to me that what it comes down to is a similar problem to diving - you can collect tickets, but what really matters is experience. The Yachtmaster probably should be a good pre-requisite for all offshore driving, as it demands so many logged hours before you get signed off.

I have a level 2 ticket, with a commercial endorsement. I am a terrible, terrible skipper - once on a boat, I fulfil all the gender stereotypes about women's parking etc. I have spent most of this season going out with much more experienced RIB drivers to try and improve. There's no way that the level 2 ticket alone would have left me able to drive commercially, even within the relatively benign quarters of Portland Harbour, where I trained. I also sometimes crew for Smudge on Scimitar, a hardboat. He occasionally lets me sit in his seat and make engine noises, but it wouldn't occur to me to ask to drive, again, even within Portland Harbour, even though technically, I'm legally allowed to do so. Anyway, I make better coffee than he does

If there was a disaster while I was driving a hardboat commercially, I don't know if the boat's insurance would cover me, even if I was within the limits of my level 2 ticket: it depends on the insurance small print. If there is a clause about operating "with reasonable care" or being "a reasonably prudent person", you could argue that, by driving a boat well beyond the limits of my experience (I trained on squidgy, short RIBs with outboard motors, not socking great solid boats with inboard motors and lines of sight restricted by the wheelhouse & lift) that I'm not acting with reasonable care, or as a reasonably prudent person.

I think perhaps that good skippers, of RIBs or hardboats, do make a difficult job look easy, which is why it can seem like an easy thing to jump in and do. Someone commented to me recently that "it's driving, it's not brain surgery". Well, no - when it all goes tits up on a boat, you're in charge of not one life but twelve. And brain surgeons can generally expect their victims to remain stationary on a table, not swim off in 5 different directions, get caught in 3kt currents and still want to be picked up, warmed up and fed.

alice (neither skipper nor brain surgeon)

[Angleseyskipper]

Originally Posted by jennybettle

so does this mean you can leagly skipper a 12m boat with a level 2 or adv power boat comercialy endorsed ticket as long as you stay within the distance from a safe port stated on the qualification ?


how would this affect the boats insurance if there was an accident?

certainly does its a mad world eh.

you never know maybe one day you'll be able to sit you HGV while driving just an escort van round a confined car park its just the same i'm sure.

[Scuby]

Originally Posted by Yellow Butty Box

And the same should apply to the skipper do you not think ? .
its just my opinion, if the yachtmaster is surpose to be the highest badge required to skipper a charter vessel under 24m then why not make it the same across the board .

Certainly nothing wrong with being certified higher than what you intend to do. But if someone somewhere has decided that the lower level is perfectly safe for certain limits, then i'm happy for them to carry on. I've seen some really terrible skippers who were supposedly highly qualified (the worst on a charter RIB who seemed like he'd never even seen a boat before!), and equally i've seen some really good skippers who hadn't been doing it long and so hadn't built up all the qualifications yet. I know some boat handlers from BSAC clubs who have been far far better than some commercial skippers, but they haven't done the big long list of qualifications because they don't need to. Given the choice i'd chose them all the time over some other skippers, and definitely wouldn't want to see good skippers / boat handlers pushed out of the system because they don't have the time or money to do the highest qualification.

Basically, more qualifications can't be worse, but doesn't necessarily mean they're better!

David

[jennybettle]

From my understanding having a comercial yachtmaster means you had a long practicle exam as well as having to show they hve had many miles of experience, ie a log and are judged by a peer ie the examiner, whilst a level 2 power boat you turn up because you thought you would like to give it a try, drive round in a few circles pick a fender out the water and tie up again, job done!

Then From day one both skippers are licenced to drive the same size Vessel make the same weather and current judgements although within distance limits.

Would you allow somone who had just got there private pilots licence drive a 747 loaded with passengers ??

It is difficult to comment on individual cases and incidents as some people will alway be better and more confident than others no matter how much or little training they have had.