Skipper only or 2 crew on offshore trips?

[David Wallace]

Originally Posted by Mal Bridgeman

I slightly misread Gary's question but don't think there's anything to disagree about....

HTH
Mal

Harmony again - peace and love resumes

[warmwaterdiver]

thanks Dave, that was the link I was looking for

very interesting given I know whats planned this year on a certain boat

[David Wallace]

Originally Posted by warmwaterdiver

thanks Dave, that was the link I was looking for

very interesting given I know whats planned this year on a certain boat

No worries - anytime I can be of help

[scubagit]

We would always have someone to backup the skipper. Help with pulling diver out of the water etc. Very handy if shit hits the fan, Cox'n has enough on his hands.

[stevechesh]

Originally Posted by warmwaterdiver

thanks Dave, that was the link I was looking for

very interesting given I know whats planned this year on a certain boat

[David Wallace]

Ok, I am going to be very very careful how I put this as A N Other Skipper seems to have got upset and has asked the Chairman of the Professional Boatmans association (Vernon Parker) to talk to me regarding the manning issues.

Firstly the Link I gave is to the new harmonised code. A lot of boats were coded under the old yellow boat code. (Don't get to confused about this) The link to the yellow code no longer exists on the site (perhaps Andy the coasty can find it) but anyway the written copy of the code still requires a person deemed competent by the skipper as crew when over 20 miles so i did not feel it necessary to point out the difference at the time.

HOWEVER. this is the important bit. There is apparently a letter from the MCA to the PBA stating that boats coded under the yellow code do NOT need the crew on the basis of a certain number of years safe operating practice in this area.

This part quoted below IS NOT in yellow boat code in this format and is NOT a requirement for boats coded as such. There are requirements of a similar nature but to be honest at this point I cannot be bothered to retype them all here

7. Single Handed Operations

7.1 The MCA does not recommend single handed operations. Vessels operating under this Code, other than those engaged as Pilot Boats or in any other business which involves the transfer of personnel at sea, may be operated single handed providing that the person operating the vessel complies fully with the minimum requirements for a skipper (appropriately qualified for the operating area) and the following conditions:-

the area of operation is restricted to Area Category 3, 4, 5 or 6 in conditions of favourable weather and subject to favourable official weather forecasts for the area throughout the period of operation; and
the duration of the voyage should not exceed 8 hours; and
the vessel is not operated single handed in conditions of restricted visibility; and
an acceptable lifejacket is worn at all times by the skipper; and
no overside working takes place whilst the vessel is being operated single handed; and
details of the time and point of departure, voyage plan and the Expected Time of Arrival (ETA) of every single handed voyage are left with a suitable person ashore and that person is notified of the safe arrival on completion of each voyage; and
communication should be made with a person ashore or with a vessel in company at regular agreed intervals; and
on all open sportsboats, inflatable craft and RIBS, engine kill-cords should be fitted and used at all times.
7.2 In some cases, because of the size and arrangement of the vessel, the Certifying Authority may deem the vessel not to be suitable for single handed operations. In all cases where single handed operations are carried out, the owner/managing agent and the skipper should be satisfied that it is safe to do so. The vessels certificate should show that it is suitable for “single handed” operations

So I am apparently wrong to say you must have crew over 20 miles and they must stay on the boat. The PBA have told me that this is not necessary.

I cannot find any MGN MIN or MSN relating to this on the MCA website and Vernon has promised to send ma a copy of the letter next week.

In the meantime I publicly apologize for any concerns that may have been raised or problems caused. In my defence I did nothing other than refer to official MCA documents and had no knowledge of this "letter" to the PBA which gave all the yellow boats an exemption for crew.

I will scan the letter and post it here when it arrives. I have to say I dont agree with the exemption, I have always believed that the crew requirement was there for a good reason - safety. But am happy to wind my neck in and accept that the rules have been modified. Personally I will continue to operate with crew over 20 miles and I will only book on charters that carry crew on trips over 20 miles.

regards

[Andy the Coastie]

Originally Posted by David Wallace

So I am apparently wrong to say you must have crew over 20 miles and they must stay on the boat. The PBA have told me that this is not necessary.

I cannot find any MGN MIN or MSN relating to this on the MCA website and Vernon has promised to send ma a copy of the letter next week.

I can see the MGN at home , but can't get to the link to be able to copy.... however i will do it at work in the morning for you .

I wonder who is playing / can't read - understand the rules .... because rules are rules or whats the point in having a section on SAFE MANNING LEVELS... :confused.com:

If I can't get it to display or people are confused, i'll have a word with our friendly PRINICIPLE SURVEYOR on Monday morning ,,,,, what he doesn't know ain't worth knowing

[Midnight]

I was involved in an informal meeting a couple of years ago with a representative of the MCA who was trying to get information and feedback regarding this matter. i.e. Their thought that every charter boat should have a first-aid and O2 admin crew in addition to the skipper and permanently on-board, this person would also be nominated as the rescue "manager".

I had a number of questions for him:
1. Has an incident ever occurred that had a disasterous outcome that would have had a totally different outcome with such a crew member? He answered "no" so I then suggested that this was not something that was broken and needing fixing.

2. I asked him why the MCA as guardians of maritime laws were trying to get involved in the making of maritime laws, as it would be like the Police trying to make the laws of the land? In both cases their expertise is in law keeping not law making.

In addition we discussed at some length the issues regarding how a dive boat is filled in recent times, i.e. fully filled by a club, part filled by a club, filled by a project team, a mixture of individuals or buddy pairs which also makes the provision of such a crew member by the divers not as straightforward as the MCA thought, as an alternative.

I would accept that in the off-shore environment there would be a need for such a member of crew and the team of divers involved would readily accept that, indeed in some cases on a project, they would even supply that member to the skipper.

However, the MCA saw this as a necessity on all diveboats (charter and club). One of the issues is that the heirarchy of the MCA has a slightly scewed vision of your avearge club set-up. In a famous quote from a meeting chaired by the MCA the chair stood up and said ".... take your average club dive boat, a 10.5 m RHIB...." (quote taken from memory).

All issues raised by the MCA in this matter would be better addressed by centrally oganised and approved training in rescue management skills. Which was one of the resons for the setting up of the BDSG , or so I thought?

Regards & Safe Diving,
Midnight

[TerryH]

Originally Posted by Midnight

I had a number of questions for him:
1. Has an incident ever occurred that had a disasterous outcome that would have had a totally different outcome with such a crew member? He answered "no" so I then suggested that this was not something that was broken and needing fixing.

Well if this was two years or more ago, sadly time has caught up.
I can think of at least 4 UK incidents where such a crew member would
have had a better outcome.

[Midnight]

Originally Posted by TerryH

Well if this was two years or more ago, sadly time has caught up.
I can think of at least 4 UK incidents where such a crew member would
have had a better outcome.

Were these incidents where the training of the skipper or dive buddies would have meant a better outcome or were they incidents that definately needed a second pair of hands to totally change the outcome?

I do not say that rescue management is not needed but I am suggesting that the situation could be improved to the satifaction of all involved with more access to suitable training for people in the existing set-up.

It is an unfortunate truth that wherever improvements are required in the field of safety the usual reaction is to make things unworkable by loading on extra tasks, checks and prohibitions. In most cases the situation would be better mended by minor alterations to the status-quo in the improvement of communications, training and clarification of rules.

It is probably because people forget the "assessment" part of "risk assessment". The analogy I always use is.... If a plane drops on you it will most likely kill you but you have to temper that with the possibility of that actually happenning, i.e. the risk is very low.

Regards,
Midnight