Skipper only or 2 crew on offshore trips?

[TerryH]

Originally Posted by Midnight

Were these incidents where the training of the skipper or dive buddies would have meant a better outcome or were they incidents that definately needed a second pair of hands to totally change the outcome?

Well the most obvious is the reconstruction on the HSE DVD (its free, just
ask them).

Skipper spots lone diver on surface, has great difficulty in manovering
boat alongside (time). When he does he is unable to lift casualty and the
best he can do is tie on till help (in the form of other divers) arrives.

Would a second pair of hands have a better outcome?
Well the HSE are of the opinion it would.

We dont have the full details, but the fact remains that in those critical
moments after surfacing, a second crew member would have been able to
help the lift and give basic life support.

We are on the RIB tommorrow. Only have 6 divers, but still 2 crew.

[Janos]

The only way to be truly safe is to sit under a tree.

We should always be asking "how can we make this safer" but we also need to remember that there is such a concept as "safe enough."

There will always be risks with diving, and, IMO, the risks around recreational diving are more than satisfactory with one crew member aboard.

Janos

[Midnight]

Originally Posted by TerryH

Well the most obvious is the reconstruction on the HSE DVD (its free, just
ask them).

Skipper spots lone diver on surface, has great difficulty in manovering
boat alongside (time). When he does he is unable to lift casualty and the
best he can do is tie on till help (in the form of other divers) arrives.

Would a second pair of hands have a better outcome?
Well the HSE are of the opinion it would.

We dont have the full details, but the fact remains that in those critical
moments after surfacing, a second crew member would have been able to
help the lift and give basic life support.

We are on the RIB tommorrow. Only have 6 divers, but still 2 crew.

Or if the skipper had realised in his own risk assessment when setting the boat up for diving that he could not lift a diver in on his own then he should have rigged something that would help him. Or indeed employed crew.

I am not saying that a crew member is not useful or that in some cases is necessary but I do feel that it should not be made mandatory. If the club or skipper has made a proper risk assessment then this will take into account any need for aiding a conscious or unconscious diver from the water and consequently mitigated the situation, well before the boat went in the water let-alone the divers.

I commend you for taking a crew on your RHIB, and if your club deems it necessary then of-course you should. You have made your risk assessment and decided that you need a crew.

Regards,
Midnight

[yazzyfooty]

Originally Posted by Janos

The only way to be truly safe is to sit under a tree.

Janos

If you do that you are still at risk of a bird shitting on you, an apple dropping and hitting you on your head or a leaf landing on your nose making it tickle and you sneeze so much you wet yourself.

No where is safe.

[Midnight]

Originally Posted by yazzyfooty

No where is safe.

What about inside Janos's sheds?

[yazzyfooty]

Originally Posted by Midnight

What about inside Janos's sheds?

I have not had the (mis) fortune to have had any experience of inside of his sheds.

[jptaylor9]

deleted, off topic

[David Wallace]

Originally Posted by Janos

The only way to be truly safe is to sit under a tree.

We should always be asking "how can we make this safer" but we also need to remember that there is such a concept as "safe enough."

There will always be risks with diving, and, IMO, the risks around recreational diving are more than satisfactory with one crew member aboard.

Janos

Agreed, your point of view is shared by many. However the original issue is what the rules say about trips over 20 miles.

I don't want to see compulsory crew on all trips either - but it is apparent that some here do

Regards


Ps have you read your pm on the other forum?

[hyweldavies]

I'm always a bit suspicious of nearly all pushing for more rules and regulations, but I'll content myself with a couple of observations on two scenarious raised by others. I'm not a hugely experience diver compared to some here, but just from thinking this through a bit...

(1) What happens if the skipper has a heart attack (or falls over the side having a pee, or whatever reason is incapacitated...).

Basically this only matters whilst every diver is still in the water AND all divers subsequently surface a long swim way away from the boat - with "a long swim away" being a weather / current dependant. Time window for this is perhaps 45 minutes "typically". Any longer window, and some divers may not yet have gone in, or the first lot may have started coming out. I am assuming that any diver still on board would be able to drive the boat and / or use the radio after a fashion.

Do bus or lorry drivers have a backup driver in case they have a hear attack whilst driving down the motorway ? Or car drivers for that matter? And if they do, are they practised enough to climb across into the driver's seat before the vehicle crashes. I've yet to see a road vehicle with a co-driver position equiped with its own steering wheel and pedals. Even driving less vehicles only have an extra brake pedal if I remember correctly. People drive vehicles all day at a stretch, and the consequences of, say a heart attack are likley to be instantly catastrophic to perhaps 40 passengers, or other road users. Why worry for the far less catastrophic case of boat driving?

In summary, though the incapacited skipper scenario could happen, it is hardly a cause for great concern. And even if it was, then just keeping a diver on board during the cross-over would solve, and even then, only bother for the small minority of boatmen whose health is of such a poor standard that they are banned from driving a car say.

(2) lone diver surfaces unconcious or otherwise incapacitated. Can skipper rescue him alone ?

Again, this is only a concern during the time-window when everyone's gone in, and the first diver comes up alone and uncouncious. If other divers already on boat, no need for extra person. If casualty's buddy also comes up at the same time, or soon after , then again, there's an extra person available to help. If the victim had been rescued from the deep perhaps unconcious, then he must have his rescuer with him. Is he solo diving, fair enough, but why should non-solo divers have to fund the extra crewman? Or perhaps he's inexperienced and rocketed up, in which case won't his buddy be up in a couple of minutes - and in any case, isn't the solution better training or more practice rather than extra crew? If he's an experienced and capable diver, why has he rocketed up at all? The remaining scenarious are a bit desperate - experienced diver has a bad turn underwater and is posted up to the surface by his buddy who awaits his deco stops, and no-one else is up for a bit. OK extra crew could help, but being realistic, the victim is going to be in pretty poor state here, so what are the chances of the extra crewman making a real difference to the eventual, probably sad, outcome.

The way to look at safety is focus on likely, rather than unlikely risks, and on things likely to help such as avoiding the accident in the first place.

Hywel

[warmwaterdiver]

slack suggests all divers need to be in the water at the same time

is the motorway (as per your example) empty with no traffic for 30 miles?
agreed you can't stop the "accident" but it will get noticed fairly quickly, in my example of the skipper being incapacitated, the divers aren't due ashore for 6+ hours

many tech dives are "solo"

this problem of solo skippers isnt a concern to scoobie dives (with all due respect)



example for you Hywel

40 miles out, 12 divers in the water, diving to a depth of 75m, one has mishap underwater and rockets to surface, missing 90mins of deco, as dives are done on slackwater, all other divers won't be up for 90mins

casualty is in distress on the surface, the skipper is having trouble getting casualty on board

should the skipper wait 90mins until the next diver surfaces?