Marks might not have been

[angus Theape]

Peter, I know a few divers (ex) who have PFOs. Most do not dive anymore, but all suffered similar symtoms in similar circumstances to yourself.

Only Tom Shields in Aberdeen, I believe, has the equipement to test for PFOs in Scotland. I don't believe an HSE medical checks for PFOs. The concept of testing all divers for PFOs a few years ago, foundered on the fact it would take over 10 years to test the existing divers with the available equipement.

If you are checked for PFO, I think your diving doc will be found wrong.

[peter k]

I'm fortunate that the official ScotSAC doctor(Steven Glenn) who has to clear me to dive again does PFO tests in Stirling. The HSE check would have only been for my own peace of mind and for a bit more info from someone who knows what he's talking about. I'll just need to wait and see what I get told.
Peter

[PaulC]

Good luck Peter and thanks for the post. I think to answer Hobby's point, the reason people tend to read posts like this a lot is that the best way of learning is through other people's experiences (the easiest, anyway!)So if ever I hear of someone having a problem I want to read about it to see what I can learn. Then the reason so many people post replies is (I hope at least partly) to send sympathies/good wishes to those involved.

The denial point is very interesting and one that you read about a lot - the idea of car buddies sounds a good'un!

Best for the future Peter,

Paul

[angleseydiver]

Hi Peter,
      Glad to see you're making a full recovery and there's
still the possibility of more diving in the future- I joined YD a couple of days before your incident and it's obvious to me you're a dive fanatic. Your account of the incident makes compelling reading and I'm sure many will benefit from your experience.
You say you'd had a bend before- did that involve a spell in the pot? Just that, the way you describe the state you were in, a trip into the unknown on top of that would, I imagine, be a total nightmare!  I did a dry-dive in the local pot as a club night-out when I first started out and found it highly educational, I'd like to recommend it to anyone who's never done it- it costs about £20.00 pp and makes for a great get together away from the usual club politics etc. I would imagine most chambers offer the dry-dive- it raises funds for their upkeep- and it gives divers an idea of what to expect should the shit hit the fan!
Anyway, back to you, Peter, I wish you all the best for the future and hope to meet you sub aqua sometime,
       regards,
                 Terry

[Stephen H]

FWIW HSE medicals don't screen for PFO (or at least they didn't last time I needed one). In fact when I was at Fort Bill for a first aid course there was not the slightest concern over them. Their view was 'if its bent, we'll straighten it!' and the cause didn't concern them.

Since about 25% of the population have a PFO I think suggesting you'd be dead if you had one is overstating the case but I understand that straining against something is the classic way of causing an intra cardiac shunt via a PFO. So maybe pushing over the barrell was a trigger? Who knows?

Anyway, your treatment at the Southern is a salutory lesson for us all. I had a friend you had a very similar experience at the Western nearly 15 years ago. He walked in unaided and by the time they mucked around giving him an x-ray (!) he was paralysed, thankfully not permanently. After another bend sometime later he was tested and found to have a PFO.

Anyway, best wishes for a speedy recovery and don't sell your kit yet. Lots of people continue to dive after bends.

[Mark Chase]

Just got back on line after a few days away so I have just read the post. Sorry to hear about your bend Pete thats a major sh#t for a dive nut like you.

I know what you mean about the denial bit it is just unbeleviable at the time. I have to say that after a rapid ascent I had last year I always have a 7ltr of 80% plus knocking around on the boat, in the car after the dive, and at home. This extra safe move didnt come about out of a personal diciplined safety decision, It came about after scareing the crap out of my self on a dive and getting a big wake up call.

I hope you make a full recoverie M8. If you want at least some encoragement about diving again read Richard Pyles account of his BIG bend and recovery and the 2000+ dives he has done since then.  

Also thanks for sharing your story with us on the net I am sure it will encourage some divers to take a diferent atitude to their diving.

All the best

Mark Chase

[Mr T.]

Hey Peter,

Here's the reply I got from a US-based Deco Doctor regarding your case (after he'd read your own account from here). I think you can take heart form this mate.

" Dear Peter:

Delay  

If it is any consolation to you, a good percentage of divers with DCS do not go to a chamber for treatment. It is, unfortunately, a truism that denial is very common. Many divers treat themselves for ”flu” with beer and aspirin. . So, while you should be kicking yourself hard, don’t do it for a long time.

I once had a sign on my desk that said, “No man is completely useless. He can always serve as a horrible example.” Thank you for sharing your story, since it will be a good lesson for others. Yup, you goofed.

Gas Loads

The computer would not have allowed such gas loads if it was read properly. The truth is, you might have gotten away with this is you were very resistant to DCS. However, with all of the hard physical exercise that was performed, you were really in a great deal of trouble. Those gas loads and that activity level would be a killer.

With all of the physical exertion, you are lucky that you did not get neurological DCS. You could have had a seizure, or lost consciousness and expired. I have seen it many times with laboratory animals.

“All’s well that ends well”

If you had no neurological residuals, you can thank the gods of diving.


Dr Deco

[On vacation this week}


__________________
Michael R. Powell, M.S., Ph.D.
"An Investment in Knowledge Always Pays the Best Interest." - Benjamin Franklin "

Hope this helps and your continued recovery is speedy.

[Beck]

Hi I though I would add a little to you discussion about some personal experience with DCS and PFO's. I am not after any form of argument about diving practices, or anything like that, I am merely trying to inform people of my own experiences.

About 1 1/2 years ago I was diagnosed with type I and II DCI.
I would consider myself a safe diver including relevant stops and following "correct" diving practices.

I would say that for all my diving life I have suffered from either headaches, muscle stretches post diving... But in no case did i ever really have a post dive symptom which I would not find another reason for...for example I always get headaches, I will admit I never drink my total 2ltrs of water daily on some occasions, which i usually considered my reason whether I was diving for not.
I used to be renound for carrying too much kit (twin sets etc) and I have a number of back, hip, and knee injuries from sports as a child.

None the less, for every symptom that I had i never considered it to be DCS as I have always had these type of symptoms since I started diving and never really knew any better I guess... (I suppose it could be considered as denial)

I am a nitrox diver and would always use as high a mix as I could relative to the depth. I will also admit a large majority of my diving was in a depth of 6-9mtrs.

So none the less I managed over a weekend of diving one day doing two dives in a day both to a depth of 9mtrs 20min dive time, second day two dives to a depth of 20mtrs max 30 min dive time. Reasonably cool water conditions (6degrees) and all relevant safety stops included and well within tables, again on sensible eanx mixes.

Post dive, I had my usual headache, so up toped up my fluids, felt fine...
I had a lovely walk in twin set and all to the top car park at a dive site in Leicester...
But none the less this was a usual weekends diving, nothing out of the ordinary, I would consider myself fit and healthy doing 5-8 dives a week, with a love for diving.

Anyway back to the bend, I had my normal headache and a little sore knee from the walk (note: I had an op on this knee as a kid and always have a prob with it) both otherwise felt fine...
Day after still a headache but otherwise feeling fine, knee felt muscularly sore. Had a shower that evening, got a rash (heat rash???), phone a particular insurance agency that suggest I sleep on it.
Day three went to chamber, diagnosed with type I and II DCS, still felt okay headache little worse then normal and knee still feeling muscularly sore....

Reflexs were out, sinal bend effect both hip knee and back, lymph glad swolen under right jaw. partial paralysis to right side of face..minor memory loss and still a headache

So my options, It was the long walk back to the vehicle post diving? Not enough water during the day? Cold water conditions? fitness??? PFO??? well it could have been all of them...

None the less chatting to the Dr, he told me I was the worst case of DCS he had seen. All my symptoms were neurological and therefore had been dismissed. Every headache was likely to be another bend.. Every muscle stain was likely to be due to be damaged tissue which is a haven for bubbles.
So even though I could walk talk and act normally the continuous damaged that diving had caused was a problem...

So I had considered that I had had a PFO, since I was a premature baby and also a very ill baby.

The waiting lists were long and I needed to know, so I went private for a contrast echo which confirmed I had a sizable PFO, then about 4 months later I had an appointment to see an NHS surgeon, than had a TOE cant spell the full name....then in feb this year I had the op...

In the mean time I had sinus surgery, to realign a deviated nasal septum, just in case that could also be a cause for my post diving headaches.

So now I have a sealed PFO and all in all I shall see in good time if I am well post diving again.....

I chose not to dive post the bend due to the severity of my symptoms and also due to some residual neurological effects.... But the Dr's said I should never dive again...
Well to me that was like telling a major tennis player, that since they had tennis elbow they could not play tennis again, that was not going to happen.... I will note this was also my part time job whist I was at uni so I would realsitically not have a job to go to....so I had to do something about it....

well if there is any info anyone needs feel free to mail me... hopefully I could shed a little more light on anything.....

rjv

NOTE: if there is anything I have learnt from this experience, that is even if you are not feeling well, a headache, small muscle pain, anything post diving phone your nearest recompression chamber and speak directly to the Dr, he can assess whether he/she feels you should need to visit them to see if you possibly have DCS…
What ever the case ensure you speak to a Dr, be wary of peoples advice, but still understand and acknowledge it….remember it is the dr at the end of the day who will decide if you are gonna end up in the pot….

[Beck]

sorry dumb blonde forgot the email address for you to contact me on rjv2@ukc.ac.uk

[Davey Willo]

Thanks Beck

That was really informative if not a little scary, I'm sure many of us have had all of the symptoms you described, I most certainly get headaches after every dive but I put that down to bad breathing techniques (I tend to hold my inhalations, a habit thats hard to break) so listening to what you say makes one realise that getting bent is far easier than one may imagine.

Thanks for sharing

regards
Dave.