Oceanic Regs

[stick_slinger]

Hi,
I've got the Delta 4/DX4 and the Swivel octopus. I love 'em. They're grrreeaaaat :-)

HTH

J

[RobbieS]

Originally Posted by chrisch

Hmm.. While buddy BCs are OK I doubt they would be first choice for a lot of us. And a drysuit is the way to go not a semi. Hardly received wisdom.

Sounds a bit old-school BSAC - if they start talking a single 15 and a pony run away

Chris

Yep, that would appear to be the case. And that set up has, um, been mentioned.

Sorry to be such a newbie but what would you suggest instead of the 15+3?

[RobbieS]

Originally Posted by Janos

Mark,

Your Oceanics aren't set up right if they freeflow on your stage

I have a set of Oceanics (CDX5, Alpha7) which I've had for aaaages and it's now my bailout reg on my stage tank. I've used it at 60m and it's fine.

I don't know why they're not more popular in the UK.

Janos

Apologies for not multi-quoting but just checked the price of that set-up and I can get the reg rig with a Suunto computer for the same price as Apex XTX40 with octo. Seems pretty good to me.

[chrisch]

Originally Posted by RobbieS

..
Sorry to be such a newbie but what would you suggest instead of the 15+3?

Two options really. First twin 7L giving 14 litres of usable gas or twin 10s giving 20 litres of gas. The pony cannot be considered as usable gas so the 15+3 is 15 litres only.

Twin 7s are nice to dive with but all the hassle of twins for not much gas. Twin 10s are great but a bit too short for most people and can be hard to do valve shutdowns and hard to trim right. Most twin users prefer twin 12. (You can, if you look very hard, find long 10L tanks that make very good twinsets)

You will find much argument and disagreement in the twins vs. pony debate. A decent buddy should be your first redundant gas source and a pony is a work-around if your buddy is crap. Where a pony is useful is in shit vis where buddy separation is a real possibility. You need to be practised with the pony and it needs to have enough gas to get you topside with all the safety stops and plenty of reserve. A 3L pony is therefore not IMHO big enough if matched to a 15L single. You will however, find many that disagree...

The odd sizes of 15/3 also make a very unbalanced rig. You need two regs so you're nearly running twins anyway...

A 12L + 3L makes far more sense but to my mind is overkill for dives in the 12L single tank range. Again many folks will disagree.....

The real problem for me is that people just get into the habit of the pony and it becomes an "every dive" accessory with little thought as to why. these folk then bang on about "its not safe to dive without one" (which is total bollocks) and before you know it everyone thinks it is a necessity. Add this to the (incorrect) view that they don't need any training or skills and we have the sad situation where the misuse of a pony has killed people - ironic for a supposed "safety" device.

In the final analysis its really down to where you want to go with your diving. As you get more experienced you will start to look at redundant gas sources. The pony (its called a bailout really - pony is American) is a dead end. Its not suited to decompression diving due to size (some very experienced divers that hardly breathe disagree but they should shut up and remember not everyone is that good) so you will go to twins anyway.

IMO and in my experience starting down the twinset route earlier pays dividends. I wish we had moved to twin 7s as an intermediate position instead of going from single 12s to twins. I struggled a lot and TBH I'm still not totally comfortable yet.

Pony tanks can be a useful tool (ice diving for example) but like any tool you need to think why you need it and not simply take it with you every dive. The faded orange buddy jacket 15L + 3L auto-air and semi-dry diver is sadly still with us when things have moved on......

Chris

[Lou]

Originally Posted by chrisch

The real problem for me is that people just get into the habit of the pony and it becomes an "every dive" accessory with little thought as to why. these folk then bang on about "its not safe to dive without one" (which is total bollocks) and before you know it everyone thinks it is a necessity.

Spot on. It' funny how defensive I feel when I get on a boat with my single 12, no pony....

Still, it is lovely and light

[Richard Mason]

Originally Posted by chrisch

Two options really. First twin 7L giving 14 litres of usable gas or twin 10s giving 20 litres of gas. The pony cannot be considered as usable gas so the 15+3 is 15 litres only.

Twin 7s are nice to dive with but all the hassle of twins for not much gas. Twin 10s are great but a bit too short for most people and can be hard to do valve shutdowns and hard to trim right. Most twin users prefer twin 12. (You can, if you look very hard, find long 10L tanks that make very good twinsets)

You will find much argument and disagreement in the twins vs. pony debate. A decent buddy should be your first redundant gas source and a pony is a work-around if your buddy is crap. Where a pony is useful is in shit vis where buddy separation is a real possibility. You need to be practised with the pony and it needs to have enough gas to get you topside with all the safety stops and plenty of reserve. A 3L pony is therefore not IMHO big enough if matched to a 15L single. You will however, find many that disagree...

The odd sizes of 15/3 also make a very unbalanced rig. You need two regs so you're nearly running twins anyway...

A 12L + 3L makes far more sense but to my mind is overkill for dives in the 12L single tank range. Again many folks will disagree.....

The real problem for me is that people just get into the habit of the pony and it becomes an "every dive" accessory with little thought as to why. these folk then bang on about "its not safe to dive without one" (which is total bollocks) and before you know it everyone thinks it is a necessity. Add this to the (incorrect) view that they don't need any training or skills and we have the sad situation where the misuse of a pony has killed people - ironic for a supposed "safety" device.

In the final analysis its really down to where you want to go with your diving. As you get more experienced you will start to look at redundant gas sources. The pony (its called a bailout really - pony is American) is a dead end. Its not suited to decompression diving due to size (some very experienced divers that hardly breathe disagree but they should shut up and remember not everyone is that good) so you will go to twins anyway.

IMO and in my experience starting down the twinset route earlier pays dividends. I wish we had moved to twin 7s as an intermediate position instead of going from single 12s to twins. I struggled a lot and TBH I'm still not totally comfortable yet.

Pony tanks can be a useful tool (ice diving for example) but like any tool you need to think why you need it and not simply take it with you every dive. The faded orange buddy jacket 15L + 3L auto-air and semi-dry diver is sadly still with us when things have moved on......

Chris

If I'm going deeper than 15M, I'll normally take the 4L pony. And I love my 15L too, I usually leave the water with 100bar still in it, but that's cool. I don't do deco dives, so I reckon the 4L gives me plenty for anything upto 40M. It's sideslung, so the mouthpiece is basically right next to my occy anyway, I really don't see a great deal of need for any parrticular training in it's use; I'll usually have a quick toot of it on most dives, so I'm familiar with it's position in an emergency.

I'd far rather ascend in an OOA independently on my pony than hanging off someone elses hose. And the one & only time I ever went OOA when diving with an octopus, my so-called buddy, on a GBR day boat refused to let me take it, so I'll never put myself in a position where I'm relying on someone else for something that basic, ever again.

Also do the maths on air sharing. At 30M, your buddy goes OOA, grabs your occie, you had 90 bars left but now he's in a panic and sucking it down at 50L/min SAC. Your buoyancy is up the creek, you push off the bottom, finning and dumping air to try and maintain neutral buoyancy, you stop finning and BUMP you're on the bottom again, he's also dumped all his air in trying to prevent a fast ascent.

I know it shouldn't happen, but it does.

[RobbieS]

Cheers for the reply Chris. I spoke to a couple of other people who pointed out that there isn't really room on the RIB for a numbr of twinsets. I'm thinking of getting a 15l for now as I'll only be doing 15-20m but going with what you said if I then move to twin 7s I'd be loosing supply to 'get used to' twins, is this really worth it?

The more you learn the more you realise how much you have to learn eh.

[chrisch]

Originally Posted by RobbieS

Cheers for the reply Chris. I spoke to a couple of other people who pointed out that there isn't really room on the RIB for a numbr of twinsets. I'm thinking of getting a 15l for now as I'll only be doing 15-20m but going with what you said if I then move to twin 7s I'd be loosing supply to 'get used to' twins, is this really worth it?

The more you learn the more you realise how much you have to learn eh.

This is a difficult thing to answer over the net. I don't like RIBs with twins either and try to dive a hardboat if we are doing deep stuff with twins and stages. That said a single 15 and a 3L bailout take up as much space as a small twinset so take your pick.

As to the future, only you know what you want to do. 20m is not a deep dive and most people I know would do this on a single 12 of EAN32 without a bailout, that certainly would be my choice. Especially from a RIB. This is great diving and great fun, easily done with a computer and very little dive planning. You shouldn't need more gas than that unless you are very strict about the BSAC's new rule of thirds for open water dives and breathe like a steam train.

The "grey area" is in my view the late 20s to mid 30s. Dive deeper than 35m and twin 10s/12s are ideal, less than (say) 27 and a single 12/15 with or without a bailout depending on vis/buddies etc. So if you definitely want to press on past the mid 30s then the early experience of twins makes sense, if your happy at 30-35m for a couple of years more its perhaps a bit early (bearing in mind the costs and stuff).

I think a lot of people start with depth and twins etc. too early. There's lots of good diving to 35m, in fact many folk never progress from that point. The frequent posters here on YD are not typical of the diving community as a whole, most of whom I would suggest have never registered on a dive forum, never mind been sad enough to clock up 6,500 post or more

If you are interested in the deeper diving sooner rather than later I suggest trying to meet up with a few experienced twinset divers who regularly dive deeper stuff. Have a look at their kit and a chat about configuration. There's plenty of folks on YD that would be happy to give you 10 minutes if you ask nicely. Me too if you're near Gildenburgh this autumn. Then think about what you want to do, where you want your diving to go and make up your own mind. There's plenty of good reading matter as well if you like to read up on stuff. Just try to get a broader view than most clubs have, especially if you have a few old school types

Chris

[Mark Davies]

Originally Posted by chrisch

Two options really.

Err, three. Single 15 tank with H-valve.

Same gas as a 12 and pony; compact, balanced, tidy - and interchangeable with twins. Okay, not exactly the same level of absolute redundancy (but quite sufficient), and it does require a bit of gas-management discipline, though throw in an air integrated computer and that's sorted. A great alternative to your twinset for those shore dives or RHIB dives where a lighter rig makes more sense. And a lot cheaper to buy and maintain than twin 7s.

As for Oceanic regs, I've been using Omega IIs exclusively for years and been perfectly happy with them. I like the fact the second stage is so light and that they can be used any way up. However, I do run them from Apeks DS4 first stages - as they perform very well and are nicely compact.

[chrisch]

Originally Posted by Mark Davies

Err, three. Single 15 tank with H-valve.

Same gas as a 12 and pony; compact, balanced, tidy - and interchangeable with twins. Okay, not exactly the same level of absolute redundancy (but quite sufficient), and it does require a bit of gas-management discipline, though throw in an air integrated computer and that's sorted. A great alternative to your twinset for those shore dives or RHIB dives where a lighter rig makes more sense. And a lot cheaper to buy and maintain than twin 7s.

As for Oceanic regs, I've been using Omega IIs exclusively for years and been perfectly happy with them. I like the fact the second stage is so light and that they can be used any way up. However, I do run them from Apeks DS4 first stages - as they perform very well and are nicely compact.

Fair point Mark. I run H valves on the singles, mainly to keep the same reg configuration with single/twin switches. I also have Oceanic Omega on DS 1st as a back up.... Thankfully mate I haven't yet totally followed your example and still have a real car

Chris