1st bcd/wing for newb???

[Tunicates are Mad]

Thanks for the stats Terry - I get the point. The Indigo is just over 4Kg as well.

Originally Posted by Clare Gledhill

I moved to a wing after 25 dives. Far from being harder to use it was easier - no pockets and useless clips and bits, and more importantly it was much more comfortable and it made me feel less squashed on the surface. I have no idea why the myth that you have to be experienced to dive one persists - probably due to the history of diving.

Maybe its in the vested interests of the ancient and venerable keepers of the light to keep other people in the dark for as long as possible, maybe they think that its the only way for them to remain the true keepers of the light.
btw - Terry, I really dont mean you here, just a point about myth upholding. That said, I do think there's something to be said for learning a subject from the beginning - just not the very beginning. Brass hats anyone???

Originally Posted by Clare Gledhill

I know many divers who have learned to dive in a single wing and know nothing else. I put my ex-husband in a wing after his open water course and he found it much easier to cope with than the BCD that his dive school insisted that he learn in. The long hose took a little more getting used to but that's not open for debate here.

As the OP I think we can discuss it at least.....er.....nah!...I just read back what I was gonna post and .....lets not debate it here.!

Originally Posted by Clare Gledhill

You have had offers to try out kit so take them up - particularly if you have pool access. Then you can choose what you want

Just waiting for the right days. I'm certainly going to take up the offers.

OK, so there is some balance in the opinions now, I've got some great offers of all sorts and got some great advice, we can let the thread lie now unless peple want to keep it going. I'm clear that I need to test some kit, and now have that option - so thanks for that.

Hang on.....I still need to test a commando! All the offers have been for 'different kit' or for wings. HAs anyone got a buddy commando I can test dive either in a London pool or at Wraysbury in a few weeks time?

Edit* Sheesh I'm such a prat. Nick offered me a Commando to test a few days a go.......durrr.

Thanks again,
TaM

[TerryH]

Originally Posted by Tunicates are Mad

Maybe its in the vested interests of the ancient and venerable keepers of the light to keep other people in the dark for as long as possible, maybe they think that its the only way for them to remain the true keepers of the light.
btw - Terry, I really dont mean you here, just a point about myth upholding. That said, I do think there's something to be said for learning a subject from the beginning - just not the very beginning. Brass hats anyone???

Well yes you are right in a way and it is a vested interest of sorts.

Look at it this way. If an Instructor was to sit down and make up what
he/she thought was a decent course, it would bear little resemblence to
what's delivered on your average effort. Why? Because worldwide dive
centers are in a competetive market that has no choice, but to define what
it does.

Ok we can point at autrusitic instructors that go beyond that, but the
harsh reality is that scuba is a big business that does have economies
of scale and like it or not decisions are made.

Ok so add up the numbers that stay on BC's vs those that go to wings?
Guess what? Even if it seems the world (or most of YD) dives a wing, in
your average scuba shop, they are easily outnumbered 10 to 1.

So ok you may hear it said that you can't start on a wing and TBH that's
rubbish, but hand on heart with all my years of teaching newbies, I can
say, that it will take a bit longer. Maybe not a great deal, but enough
to make a difference.

Or to put it another way, are you really going to extend your agencies
course by maybe as little as half a day, making you less competative, just
to accommodate a piece of kit that only 10% of your clients would buy
anyway?

Trouble is with a lot of myths surrounding scuba, is that while we obviously
relate them to our own experiences, the agencies have a considerably larger
agenda that sometimes isnt as clear-cut as you would think.

[neil_richardson]

Ummm i like using a BCD, a 15 year old, Buddy commando, for my travelling. Its great, its orange, its lightweight, its orange, its reliable, its orange, i can easily dive with indepedant twins attached to it, its bright bright bright orange, and i can set myself up easilly and quickly anywhere in the world, with whatever protective or lack of protective clothing is needed, and its quite simply the easiest bit of kit i own. Totally recommend a nice lightweight, simple, uncomplicated BCD for travelling.

For my main recreational diving,, umm i dive a wing... But thats cause most my diving is deep, twin tank, stage, dry suit diving...

[ShinyD]

I've just mailed my Buddy BCD to a buyer. There was only the BCD in a cardboard box and it weighed in at 6.69 kilos, and yes it was dry as it hasn't been dived for 6 months (the bladder was empty too). Maybe the new TD's like this are heavier?

Anyway, it's not only the weight, but the physical bulk of them in comparison to a single tank wing.

Lots of good advice here though

[TerryH]

Originally Posted by ShinyD

I've just mailed my Buddy BCD to a buyer. There was only the BCD in a cardboard box and it weighed in at 6.69 kilos, and yes it was dry as it hasn't been dived for 6 months (the bladder was empty too). Maybe the new TD's like this are heavier?

Anyway, it's not only the weight, but the physical bulk of them in comparison to a single tank wing.

Lots of good advice here though

Well we were talking new, and AP reckon it's 3.8kg according to the
site A.P.Valves

Did yours include the cylinder?

[ShinyD]

Originally Posted by TerryH

Well we were talking new, and AP reckon it's 3.8kg according to the
site A.P.Valves

Did yours include the cylinder?

No - no suicide bottle fitted and it doesn't have the auto air option either. I didn't leave any weights in the integrated weights pockets either before anyone implies it

I haven't looked at AP's site, I just know it weighed 6.69 kilos including a not particularly heavy cardboard box.

[neil_richardson]

Hmm just checked my old Orange one, it weighs, with the extra metal d-rings, 3.2kgs. But then again, the modern ones have a damn site more things attached to them. So can understand the BCD getting up to about 5-6kgs.. But anyhow, what does it really matter? on airlines, just put your scuba gear in a seperate sports bag, and providing you designate it as a sports bag, then the amount it weighs is im-material. Remember island hopping around madagascar with a dive bag weighing 25/6kg's and a backpack weighing 14kgs. Never got charged excess baggage once ;-)

[iainmsmith]

Originally Posted by TerryH

So ok you may hear it said that you can't start on a wing and TBH that's rubbish, but hand on heart with all my years of teaching newbies, I can say, that it will take a bit longer. Maybe not a great deal, but enough
to make a difference.

BUUUUULLSHIT!!!

Sorry, but there's no other way of describing the above.
Controls fitted to a BC: inflate, deflate and dump (sometimes up to three)
Controls fitted to a wing: inflate, deflate and dump (normally one - so fewer decisions to make)

How many novices have you started on wings, anyway, Terry?

Or to put it another way, are you really going to extend your agencies
course by maybe as little as half a day, making you less competative, just
to accommodate a piece of kit that only 10% of your clients would buy
anyway?

If you teach them on wings from the start, you might find that percentage going up...and those buying BCDs going down...but that's a seperate issue.

Iain

[String]

Ive taught people in BCDs and Wings a lot over the last year and provided you start with one and continue with it throughout i've not noticed a shred of difference between the 2.

A wing is just a BCD - its got a hose with buttons to put air in and air out, its got a toggle dump on the rear. No difference there, looks the same, works the same and takes them just as long to adjust to as a BCD.

Now the HARNESS i can appreciate may take a bit longer *IF* you go for a one piece or one without adjustments as you'd need to fiddle a bit to get it right for them initially - hell it might even add 15 minutes per student for the entire course. After that though, nothing different to a BCD at all.
(and obviously you don't need to go for non adjustable harnesses if the above is an issue).

I really cant see any reason at all as to why a wing would take longer than a BCD to teach in and certainly hasn't been bourne out in my experience of teaching both.
(FWIW i always teach in my wing with harness and the students in BCDs have never found it confusing either - its got buttons for air in and out on a hose just like theirs, its got a toggle dump on the back just like theirs etc but thats for a different topic).

[Tunicates are Mad]

I decided in the end to make life easy. While I get used to UK diving and dry-suits etc - I'm keeping with as much as I know already as possible, and thats a stab jacket. I'll see if I get hooked on the UK wetness and whether I end up wanting/needing a twin-set and wing later.

I bought a perfectly fine 2nd h. buddy commando, it holds air and everything works.

Thanks for all the offers of dives in wings, and other things, and thanks for all the offers and advice.

Next on the list is a dry-suit.