Maybe a new diver is actually reallllly old...

[StephenT]

bah, i'm not going to continue a farcical debate . I believe SCUBA is an inadvertently dangerous sport for people without the right training. I've buddied some1 who went <30 metres for the first time, who panicked, and now think that OW (pool sessions) is the minimum training that should be allowed before someone does sea dives.

I know these are probably very gentle dives, and i'm all for people getting introduced to the sport, after all the people who do 2-3 dives before they give up is the heart and blood of the industry (or so it seems). Hey they may as well go snorkelling, if its only 6 metres they will see the same? :P

[MDS]

Originally Posted by StephenT

firstly : i disagree with any of this "discover scuba crap" if you aren't prepared to spend (only 3/4 days man) the time to learn to qualify then don't bother. Maybe a try dive in a pool is acceptable, not in the sea.

secondly : scuba reviews? what the heck are they. If you don't drive a car for 5 years you are still allowed to drive, what's the difference between driving and scuba? as with driving you ease yourself back in gently....

Well I guess my view will upset a few but here goes!

I was PADI trained and reached MSD recently but haved discovered holes in the PADI system where I need to patch up to round up my diving skills to the level I orginally expected from PADI. For me the PADI sytem hasn't lived up to the training expectations I had for the money it has cost to get to MSD

I have met up with a local BSAC dive school in my area very recently and after having a lengthy discussion about the BSAC system over several pints I find myself comfortably drawn to their way of doing things

Not for a quick profit and not to churn out divers like Kelloggs churn out packets of cornflakes! Just slowly gaining experience in between quals and move on where your'e good and ready

That to me seems a good way to produce quality divers. PADI system allows you to technically call yourself an Adv OW Diver on 2 courses and 9 dives only - Ridiculous

Of course scuba reviews are a good thing but PADI is a commercial business venture. BSAC will give you a review/training for nothing more than your annual membership fee and IMO if you keep going BSAC will benefit you as a diver more than PADI in the long term. I do however agree with StephenT that a try dive in a pool is acceptable, but not in the sea. A PADI instructor can't insist you take a scuba review if you don't disclose your gap and if you have a 6 month gap you could just do the 1 dive then you don't have a gap! - supposedly

Whether or not you take a scuba review is a personal choice like car refresher lessons although I can see the benefit but I personally wouldn't wish to pay for it. If you're diving is really rusty and you chose to do a big dive immediately on ressuming then the risks are yours to take and only yourself to balme if you run into any difficulties - you are always responsible for your own safety anyway.

It is all politics/personal philosphy but I've decided to flit as I feel the benefits of BSAC membership outweigh PADI IMHO

[jimgiddings]

Ok, some good responses here...

I've done more than a few scube reviews in a swimming pool, where in the time of an hour and a half I put the rusty diver through all the core PADI review skills.

(This is 20 skills and if you want I can list all of them and bore you to tears...)

Most of the time it really is like bicycle riding...you get geared up, you jump in, we get comfy on the surface, play with buoyancy a bit, then do our skills.

The divers are better for this review, but if they perform miserably I would- and have- reccommended the diver take OW Certification all over again. Then I send an e-mail to the dive center, or talk w/ the owner about getting that diver back thru Certification...possibly at a reduced rate ?

But I really leave the $ between diver and local dive shop owner...

All that said, in my original post I was referring to myself being a VERY green Divemaster...and wow have I recognized different divers and behavior since then. How they get kitted up...their attitude at the dive site, their mental state (do they seem ready for todays dive?) etc. etc.

My point being- IF YOU are the diver in charge - let's say the DM - and a diver is NOT familiar with the tasks, then THEY don't go diving. It's my job to speak up and say - ok, "you- OUT of the pool!"

...of course I would put this much more gently to the guy who suddenly feels 'ex-communicated' something like, " Hey, why don't we do some pool work for an evening first - just one on one- before we hit the ocean?"

Make sense ?

Purple Vonny- I agree- the last thing I need is some freaky lawsuit delivered to my front door.

MDS- yes, PADI is the biggest dive cert. agency out there...and well, this makes them a good size target too. I don't believe the entire world should be diving. PADI thinks somehow this is their mission, but I have a much different attitude. No asthma, no serious handicaps, no immature divers ( 10 years old? Are you kidding?) ...I just would not dive with somebody who has a zero chance of helping ME if I need it, and would cause more liability than it's truly worth. Call me politically incorrect or whatever...my .02 worth.

Huzzah!

Jim 'Gog and Magog' G.

[Tonio Anastasi]

Quite a bit has been said on this tread.

First to the guy that started it. Its a hard lesson to learn and thank you for sharing it and hope that you as all of us will treasure the lessons learned.

On the Scuba diving review.Any sensible diver that has not dived for a while would take the time out to go through basics. The the Scuba Diving Review or equivalent is a good place to start.

I have a few thousand dives logged up but if I do not dive for a few months, I'll go through basics.

The points raised about being run over by a driver. One who has not driven in 5 years. It is a good point, as is the point made about a surgeon operating on you who has not operated in 5 years.

The consequence of a diving incident, because, you do not luxury the opportunity to pull the breaks or pullover, is most probably a drowning or near drowning, and because we dive in buddy pairs, it could very well be two. As was said this is a potentially dangerous sport.

I have mentioned this on other treads before. Personaly, if I come across a diver that has not dived for months? I do recommend a check out pleasure dive, with some basic skills at the start.
I am also, as is every instructor or buddy, within my rights to ask for a Scuba review, if a diver has no proof of qualification, few logged dives and/or has not dived in years or months. There is no issue of payments here as this first dive I usually offer as a bonus.

This is very rarely objected to.

Like many diving instructors I have had the pleasure of meeting over the years, I would refuse to dive with a diver who has limited experience and has not dived in months or years UNLESS they do a Scuba Review equivalent.

As for the Discover Scuba Diving or taster dives or resorts courses. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. But to rubbish a system that,
just from my personal experience, has contributed to the BSAC and PADI diving fraternity, divers to all levels including instructors and course directors?!

Well it sounds a bit narrow minded.

Sometime maybe somebody will sit down with me over a beer and explain to me the difference between taking a person down to 4M -5M in a pool or 4M 5M in a controlled open water enviorment, because personally all my, as well as most diving operations around the world, tasters, resort courses or DSD all lead to the sea.

Finally. PADI, BSAC,SAS,VDSD, all teach the same fundamental basics and all teach the same defensive diving. There is no rushing in these courses, and neither do the standards of any organization allow for rushing through.

Instructors have a DUTY OF CARE.

The difference lays not in the various agencies, which have stict standards and guidelines but in the sense of responsibility of the individual instructors.

Tonio Anastasi
BSAC AI505
PADI OWSI 612103.