One thing leads to another.....

[GLOC]

Thanks Flip. I hope that this won't stop people posting here as there is loads to be learned from others mistakes.

I think Nick's comments were based on his premise that the OP may not have learned from his mistake as he didn't see what was wrong with what he did. I think he now does and therefore everyone can learn.

[sidthejedi]

TBH provided the instructors only sign off someone if they have completed that dive to their satisfaction does it really matter whether we think he is up to it or not? At the end of the day it depends on what your viewpoint is on DL training.

If you feel that the DL dives should be a rubber stamping process to be got out of the way when the diver is of the required standard then yes, stuart isn't up to it. If on the other hand you believe that DL training is part of a divers learning curve and a chance to develop skills that they might not have used to date then stuart is ready for DL training.

Its a difficult problem, and one that different clubs have differing attitudes on. In fact you could have exactly the same argument about the IDC, PRM and a lot of other courses as well. However it boils down to what I said at the beginning - if he is up to it then he passes and if he doesn't then he will have learned stuff that will help him as a diver. Either way stuart wins.

[Forest Diver]

I have to agree with GLOC, NickB's post are sanctamonious - the point of this forum is for users to share 'cock ups' and 'oh shits' with the wider community without critisism for everyones benifit - I am a frequent reader for one - each incident report is an 'information to learn by' if posts here are to be pounced on by 'divers who would never make such a mistake' and give open forum critique then it will detract from the spirit of this forum.

If people want to 'big up' their advice (hindsight is a wondefrful science) it seems more appropriate to do it by PM as opposed to a public slagging off.

Greenhouse rocks and things.....

[bobwilsonsaa421]

stu
you can never foresee what will happen on adive , or your gear . you may have checked it the night before or whenever but then O RINGS BLOW/ TORCH LEAKS/E.T.C E.T.Ci call it the snowball effect ,IT GETS BIGGER .
at the end of the day its all down to the training you have learnt. cheers bob .
ps. you never stop learning

[A. Berk]

Originally Posted by stuartr

A few weeks back my bc inflator (not the hose) needed replacing..see earlier thread.
Diveshop in S Croydon tells me they will order the part and I say I will collect it next week or the week after.
I leave it to the Friday to collect, and the numpty hasn't ordered it. Feck. I'm doing dive leader training the next day.
shop insists on taking my bc and apologises. offers a loan of a bc which I decline as I can use my spare.

Stuart

Often the inflator of one BC can be changed for that of another. Perhaps your spare BC could have been 'cannibalised' to get your No1 BC up and running? That to me is 'dive leader' thinking.

Berko

[MattS]

Hi Stuart

Your conclusions are not wrong. They would prevent the incident because you would choose not to dive. That can be a very difficult decision particularly where it means missing a rare opportunity - good old peer pressure. Subsequent to an incident it is of course a very easy decision to make with hindsight.

However we have to live with the fact that blowing a dive is the last resort for most of us. Let's see if we can offer some constructive advice.

The dive in question is an assessment and I would have a very difficult job passing you in the circumstances. My main issue with what you did is that you managed to ignore a lot of stuff which is covered in the Dive Leader lectures.

1. Kit preparation. Dive Leaders often find inexperienced divers demanding their attention prior to the dive. Potentially this could distract you from your own prep. So do as much prep before arriving as is possible. Assemble your kit the night before, test it and put it into your car ready to go. Where you are using kit that has been hanging around put the moving parts in a bucket or bowl of water when you test them. Would this have shown up the sticky inflator and freeflowing regs? Most probably, and more importantly you would have had a bit of time to fix them.

2. Do not compromise your kit config. You have your regs clipped and stowed the way you do for a reason. The chances are each of those decisions has been based on getting it wrong a few times. So once you have something you know works, don't go back to doing it badly just because it happens to be convenient at the time.

3. Set an example. OK you did not have clips spare, and with the cost of them that is not surprising. So keep a couple meters of bungee around and use that to fashion retainers for regs and gauges. Even better, when an inexperienced diver shows up looking like a Christmas tree you can sort his kit out prior to diving with him. You might even decide to abandon shop clips altogether (I did).

4. It matters. There is a very good chance that I personally would have refused to complete your assessment had you shown up in the state you did. Pony reg in pockets and a dangling AAS are no fecking good to anyone. By letting you get away with it I would be giving you the message that it does not matter - and why the hell would I waste my time teaching you things that do not matter! Of you have just learnt the hard way that I do not waste my time teaching useless things. Exactly the same is true for the inexperienced. If you let them dive with their kit in a mess you (as Dive Leader) are placing them at increased risk. Of course the couple meters of bungee in my dive bag would allow me to sort your kit out and we can both have an enjoyable day.

Just going back to something in your post;

last lift of four I start up on 90 bar. After doing the lift my instructor comes over and stuffs his Occy in my face?!? Odd what's going on... as I sort my buoyancy out I look at my gauge it reads 5 bar. Well it would be rude to refuse I think... The next OOA ascent is for real, but again no drama. (I did still have my pony but that would not have inflated my bc if out of air.)

Are you saying here that your instructor re-descended with 5 bar in your main and you on his AAS, to finish the lesson? If that is the case maybe you would like to comment on what you think of your instructors actions.

[uwila]

Originally Posted by nickb

Yes, do you think you're ready for Dive Leader training?

I wouldn't want to be lead on a dive with somebody who's ready to dive with such crap kit.

My 2p: irrespective of wether the comment is accurate, it's a little blunt and not entirely 100% in the spirit of the forum.
Personally, I think the fact that Stuart is still in training is relevant. He would probaly now admit that he wasn't ready to be a DL, but surely it is highly likely that he is ready for the training as someone has assessed him as ready and is happy to help him progress? It seems as if he has learned from his experience. Also he is 'man enough' (no slight intended to the ladies) to admit his failings in order to help others avoid the same dumb mistake. This attitude indicates to me that Stuart is ready for the training.

Originally Posted by MattS

3. Set an example.

Matt's point should not be underestimated. Two things teach us to get into dangerous habits:

1 Seeing an expert do it. We know that an AAS should be visible and easy to get at when needed, but if the DL has it in his pocket, then maybe only really good divers can do that. The novice wants to be considered a really good diver, so copies the behaviour.

2 Getting away with it. One day, you take the lazy route and nothing dire happens. In fact, you've been stowing your AAS in your pocket for months without any problem, so what's the fuss? Sadly, we only find out in a genuine emergency.

Good luck with your training, and thanks for the post, it's a helpful reminder to the rest of us.

Cheers, Chris

[rustferret]

there is having descussion and knocking someones confidence.

As far as I am cocerned he has recognised his faults and no dought taken on the thoughts of others.......as far as is he ready for dive leader training the best person to deside that is HIS instructor.

Rustferret.

Thanks for posting the original.

[chrisMc]

I've not posted on YD for a while, but have recently started to find the incident reports intresting to read.

Whilst better kit config, preperation, clips, servicing etc. will reduce the chances of things like this happening it wont solve it.

From my point of view the main point of view is in storage of your octopus, thats what could kill you.

never put a pressurised reg anywhere where its trailing or you cant see it. It can get full of grit, sand free flow etc. and you wouldnt know. This doesnt mean you need clips all over, in the past in similar situations I have tucked them in the BC waistband, I can see them free flowing there and they are out of the way.

[chrisMc]

I've not posted on YD for a while, but have recently started to find the incident reports intresting to read.

Whilst better kit config, preperation, clips, servicing etc. will reduce the chances of things like this happening it wont solve it.

From my point of view the main error is in storage of your octopus, thats what could kill you.

never put a pressurised reg anywhere where its trailing or you cant see it. It can get full of grit, sand free flow etc. and you wouldnt know. This doesnt mean you need clips all over, in the past in similar situations I have tucked them in the BC waistband, I can see them free flowing there and they are out of the way.