Incident STONEY COVE

[TerryH]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

Terry, a question?

If your going to use the long hose system from now on why "practice till proficiant" with an Octo system? I will personaly never use an octo system again.

A pony rig is not a formaly trained system either yet you seem happy with that?

Dispite being the Anti-christ of DIR and GUE back in the early 2000 period I still embraced the long hose (and the pony rig for that matter) because it made a lot of sense. Mark Chase

Hi Mark,

A diver is taught to use a system, is ok with it in training (must have been
he passed) and then went onto to use it in anger and there was a problem.

The trainng is already there and ingrained using standard Occi, but for some
reason it didnt work. So we could go back over that same training and make
sure that the kit rig, clips etc. are right, redoe the protocol again or we can
introduce an entirely new way.

If we have a fubar on one system dispite being taught, how on earth do
we think that another isnt gonna be a fubar? Generalisation here, but
saying go X from an armchair, insnt exactly gonna find out what really is
the problem. Kit or diver?

If long-hose had been taught from day one and the pundits on here had
been screaming go Octopus, I would have been anti-that.

Got no issue with lonh-hose whatsoever and if that's your bag fine, but
if we have a diving problem then dont look at just the kit, look at the diver
as well. They do tend to need each other to work properly.

Rgds
Tel.

PS: Pony is taught formally on at least three courses that I teach, so not
sure where you get that idea from.

[TerryH]

.

[Lou]

Originally Posted by Southern_Dave

This is the method I was shown and used during the PADI OW course 2 weeks ago.

Nicely handled though Daz, despite the difficulties you both made it to the surface with no injuries. Surely, although obviously lessons can be learned, that's what counts...

That is interesting. It certainly wasn't what I was shown in either OW or RD. Can any PADI instructors comment? I was shown the "Clasp", and part of the reason was that the arm to arm contact was a calming measure for the OOA diver.

[David]

Originally Posted by TerryH

If we have a fubar on one system dispite being taught, how on earth do
we think that another isnt gonna be a fubar? Generalisation here, but
saying go X from an armchair, insnt exactly gonna find out what really is
the problem. Kit or diver?

If long-hose had been taught from day one and the pundits on here had
been screaming go Octopus, I would have been anti-that.

Rgds
Tel.

hi Terry
nice open answer I think in this case we should agree it was a kit problem that caused the problem and another kit problem that failed to solve the problem.
I dont want to get into Daz incident too much he did well two safe divers best outcome for everyone. But the problems were all kit based one of my reasons for sugesting a long hose is his buddy would of got the same reg with the same gas he was breathing at the time. I find it hard to beleive taking out of one mouth and puting it in another its going to fail.

as for being taught one system then changing. How do we change then or when. I hated the long hose I knew it was going to kill me UNTIL I was show how it works and that took about 20 seconds for me to make up my mind. If we did not change we would all still be using a flint to make fire. I can see it now no dont use a lighter its diffrent :-) I have seen diving change, most changes make it safer ( except this black fetish )


David

[TerryH]

Originally Posted by David

I realy dont know what makes you so good an instructor that you can give advice like that over the internet I do hope your insured :-) because his system has already let him down his buddy down but your advice is to stick with it.......
you must be a very good instructor to be able see if he is fit to dive with a failed rig.

but well you have done it now so I hope you right my friend....

Daz you do what your happy with but I would get some advice form a real person :-) someone you can trust your life too...

David

Originally Posted by TerryH

Dont even think about long hose and stick with what you know and have
trained with. Get it rigged right so that you know it can be pulled away
and donated quick. Go back to basics and practice what you have been
taught before, doing drills at 6m.

Sorry missed your post.

So what did I write?

The OP was about a kit problem that caused a fubar.
So I suggested that he:

1) Get the kit sorted.
2) Go back to basics (that's right the one single method that he has been
trained with so far) and ensure he can now donate/get it.
3) Practice in a shallow and safe enviroment (6m) and not at 20m.

So please tell me how that is suggesting anything other than a very safe
way off making sure he is ok.

[David]

Originally Posted by Lou

That is interesting. It certainly wasn't what I was shown in either OW or RD. Can any PADI instructors comment? I was shown the "Clasp", and part of the reason was that the arm to arm contact was a calming measure for the OOA diver.

I cant remember :-) but something tells me if I was donating to grab hold of the other diver and dont let go. face to face making eye contact for all the same reasons :-)

yes that was from a Padi way of thinking what do the other agency do ? is it the same. ?

David

[Daz217]

Hi Terry,
You make valid points and i agree with some of your observations. The thing i found was that i was very task loaded during the incident i had to sort everything from air to bouyancy to ascent rate to paniced diver to equipment failure x2
All of these things happening singularly would not have been a problem. I made a mistake of routing my Octopus via the hose router. I had done this as my Octoguard had bust a week or two previously and i had not replaced it. With hindsight i should have checked that i could have pulled my octopus from the router with ease or bought a new Octoguard.
I was not intending on practising any drills at 20M but as it happened i needed to use several skills at the same time for real. I could have peformed better but it could have been a lot worse too.
It was only because i have done the training that we had a succesful outcome.
I have learnt from it and that is the main thing but i won't pretend it has not caused some soul searching and serious reflection time.

[TerryH]

Originally Posted by Daz217

Hi Terry,
You make valid points and i agree with some of your observations. The thing i found was that i was very task loaded during the incident i had to sort everything from air to bouyancy to ascent rate to paniced diver to equipment failure x2
All of these things happening singularly would not have been a problem. I made a mistake of routing my Octopus via the hose router. I had done this as my Octoguard had bust a week or two previously and i had not replaced it. With hindsight i should have checked that i could have pulled my octopus from the router with ease or bought a new Octoguard.
I was not intending on practising any drills at 20M but as it happened i needed to use several skills at the same time for real. I could have peformed better but it could have been a lot worse too.
It was only because i have done the training that we had a succesful outcome.
I have learnt from it and that is the main thing but i won't pretend it has not caused some soul searching and serious reflection time.

Hi Daz,

Well done on the rescue, you got back and that in the first instance is all
that matters.

Kit tweaking can sort out the occi problem and I bet you are looking at
other areas that were flagged during the incident. Reason I said go back
to basics, is that these incidents often bring home good and bad points,
so by going over drills in hindsight, your skills just get so much better.

Rgds
Tel.

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by TerryH

Hi Mark,

A diver is taught to use a system, is ok with it in training (must have been
he passed) and then went onto to use it in anger and there was a problem.

The trainng is already there and ingrained using standard Occi, but for some
reason it didnt work. So we could go back over that same training and make
sure that the kit rig, clips etc. are right, redoe the protocol again or we can
introduce an entirely new way.

If we have a fubar on one system dispite being taught, how on earth do
we think that another isnt gonna be a fubar? Generalisation here, but
saying go X from an armchair, insnt exactly gonna find out what really is
the problem. Kit or diver?

If long-hose had been taught from day one and the pundits on here had
been screaming go Octopus, I would have been anti-that.

Got no issue with lonh-hose whatsoever and if that's your bag fine, but
if we have a diving problem then dont look at just the kit, look at the diver
as well. They do tend to need each other to work properly.

Rgds
Tel.

I was PADI trained to use the Octo in the triangle system. I had most of the usual problems with it, broken clips, forgotten clips , a clip that pulled the mouthpiece clean off and of course forgetting to clip it on in the first place. Then after years of just rigging it like that, I eventually got a buddy (my wife) who I needed to help with her diving. Then when i started to use the system in training and practice sessions I fount it less than optimal.

I tried the long hose system following some advice from a friend (a PADI instructor who used a long hose) and found it easier and more comfortable to use so i have never gone back.

The actual skills of diver support and ascent remained pretty much the same it was just the donation of the reg that changed. I didn't actually see a need fro additional training but I appreciate others may feel professional training would be beneficial.

Pretty much the same story with the pony rely, no training received we just sort of experimented and figured it all out.

PS: Pony is taught formally on at least three courses that I teach, so not sure where you get that idea from.

I have done the usual PADI training with a few specialties like wreck and deep thrown in, and never been taught to use a pony. In fact all through my TDI training up to CCR trimix i have never been taught to use a pony per say but I suppose deco tanks and bailout tanks (for CCR) are similar.

Unless BSAC teach it? i am not aware of an official training system for the use of ponies such as there is say for the use of a dry suit.

So my point is, it seems acceptable for say a PADI AOW diver to use a pony and say a SMB and reel, none of which he has been specifically trained in, but to consider swapping to a long hose you consider wrong?

Thats the bit I don't get.

ATB

Mark Chase

[Arfie]

Firstly, well done Daz, you handled it well enough that nobody was injured or worse and thats what matters most.

I am PADI trained and have ben taught to use the octo while facing and sadly I've had to use it on my very first unaccompanied dive when I ran out of air It worked OK for us at the time and luckily it happened during a safety stop which we fully completed.

As a relative novice I take the view that there are loads of different methods and I know the ones I know now, and I'll learn (or make up) other stuff as I become more experienced and confident. I do think that we all should do the drills regularly to keep it all fresh in our minds and as I now have a new buddy I intend to do some next chance we get.

As I don't use a drysuit forgive my ignorance, but could the freeflowing hose not have been folded to stop or at least restrict the airflow? Might be handy to know as I dive with drysuit wearing wimps .

Once again Daz, well done and great post.

Arfie