CO2 hit on Rebreather: New HSE/SKy Video

[Paul Brookes]

I had already seen APs video for scrubber packing, and having been taught to pack it tight I was a bit sceptical. However, if the MD of AP is going to publicly recommend this, they must have done their research. This season, I have still been tapping it down, but only briefly. I've taken it to 3 hours several times in UK waters without incident so I'm happy with it.

What scared me more was the fact that after bailing out, he continued to deteriorate and his breathing rate stayed sky high. I carry bail out based on 50l/minute for the ascent, with a 50% 7l for the shallower/deco part for which I assumed my breathing would have settled down to around 20l/minute. I'm going to have to rethink my calculations after watching that video.

I know it's easy to be an armchair critic, but the dive team really should have noticed the high breathing rate following the bailout and taken charge. I can't knock the guy that took the hit as he was following his training, but his instructor is clearly negligent and (IMO) should be prosecuted for teaching known dangerous practices.

Paul

[Okeanos]

So has anyone outed the instructor and agency yet?

[skuba-steve]

4 me that vid was very educational.. ive had a play with a friends RB and its defo something which im hoping to train and ease my way into in the future...
as 4 the packing of the scruber, ive only ever seen it done nice and tight so as not to create a void across the top!

[zepp]

Originally Posted by skuba-steve

4 me that vid was very educational.. ive had a play with a friends RB and its defo something which im hoping to train and ease my way into in the future...
as 4 the packing of the scruber, ive only ever seen it done nice and tight so as not to create a void across the top!

Yes, you are right but as mine is a KISS, there is no springs to take up any space so I do make sure that the lime cannot settle after packing. I normally pack at home, drive to the site, remove scrubber and add enough to get it to correct height. In my opinion, the springs within the Inspo are not really strong enough to take up any considerable settlement, especially if the scrubber is transported horizontal.

[BJ]

From Diver Mag July 2005.

I was shocked then and I still cannot believe some CCR divers re-use scrubber material.

Divernet | Kit Q&A | Kit Q & A July 2005...

[Mal Bridgeman]

Originally Posted by BJ

From Diver Mag July 2005.

I was shocked then and I still cannot believe some CCR divers re-use scrubber material.

Divernet | Kit Q&A | Kit Q & A July 2005...

Any thoughts on next week's lottery numbers, John?

[BJ]

I have had a CO2 hit when I put the scrubber canister in the scrubber bucket of a Prism (now modified) upside-down, thereby bypassing it. I got the hit before I jumped in the water but I was so confused I still went and fought for my life before getting back up from around 10m. It was the closest thing I have had to a heart attack. That's why I don't have faith in OC bail-out. You are simply not in good shape to think it through when things like that go wrong.

[AM1]

Originally Posted by BJ

I have had a CO2 hit when I put the scrubber canister in the scrubber bucket of a Prism (now modified) upside-down, thereby bypassing it. I got the hit before I jumped in the water but I was so confused I still went and fought for my life before getting back up from around 10m. It was the closest thing I have had to a heart attack. That's why I don't have faith in OC bail-out. You are simply not in good shape to think it through when things like that go wrong.

Yes but if you had OC bailout, a buddy can shove it in your gob. Or you could potentially help someone else in trouble. CO2 is only one of several failure modes on a rebreather. If you had a flood, you would still be competent enough to effect a bailout,which would save your life. The proposition that you don't have faith in OC bailout at all, because you don't believe it can mitigate one of many failure modes, is fundamentally flawed.

Let's be clear on the terminology here about "re-using" lime. Some commentators in this thread and others have stated that they know divers who put the lime in a bag and re-use. That is not the case - the inner scrubber can can be removed from the outer can, without disturbing the lime bed or seal, and stored in a plastic bag, if the lime has less than three hours. THIS is the common practice, not tipping out the actual lime and then re-filling the scrubber with the same used lime!! The HSE have positioned this very inaccurately. Or maybe Teaching Death International have reached even more monolithic levels of incompetence.

With respect to the point about the APD scrubber packing demonstration, whether or not personal preference is to pack tight or loose (I pack tight), there is a bigger picture here. Why, if APD as the product manufacturer, recommend this loose packing technique, are the training agencies not aligned? This has been an intrinsic problem for years and yet we are still seeing lack of coherence between manufacturers and these "outsourced" training agencies. We are entitled to be afforded an explanation as to why the training agencies all teach different ways to pack a scrubber, none of these ways correlating to the method which the Manufacturer recommends. This is one of the most vital, fundamental activities in safely preparing a rebreather for diving and yet there is no one, single, unified method across the board.

Regarding the substantive point about an instructor teaching a student that lime "re-use", i.e. unpacking and repacking the same lime, is acceptable, once lime pathways have been disturbed, channelling WILL occur if that lime is used again for diving. NO instructor should be labouring under the misapprehension that this practice is anything other than suicidal.

If an instructor is found to be teaching patently wrong rebreather methodology and a diver gets injured or dies as a direct result of inadequate training, then that instructor is grossly negligent and should be disbarred forever from diving instruction, as well as charged with manslaughter. The agency involved should also be found vicariously liable and closed down, for failing to institute appropriate training quality control procedures and failing to ensure that their Instructor had appropriate professional knowledge, experience and application of manufacturer's equipment guidelines.

It is simply not acceptable that divers can be awarded a certification (via uncodified standards on a single instructor's autonomy) which deems them to be competent of diving on life-sustaining equipment, yet said divers can subsequently lose their lives as a direct consequence of being taught life-endangering practices.

Each one of us, upon electing to undertake agency training, should be phoning the CEO of these organisations and asking - "What strategy, other than certification, have you implemented, to ensure that your Instructors are competent and aligned with Manufacturer's guidelines?"

Agency training and certification does NOT equal competence to dive. A self-taught diver would never believe that it was ever appropriate, under any circumstances, to empty out used lime and then repack and dive with that lime.

[scuba g]

Ranging from the RB novice (myself) to the experienced RB diver, its as dangerous as its understood, you give someone training on a life support unit, you assume they should have a master knowledge of it before being let loose in an already hostile environment, seems these lads took the instructors word on the packing, I had researched RBs before I got mine, and one thing that stuck out was the packing of the lime, and never to reuse it, or put partially exposed sorb back in. Im glad to see no one was the poster boy for a tragic rebreather diving incident, but that could have easily have happened. Also diving in a team, surely training makes you aware of the failures in the system, I had Rich Steveson for my MOD1 (Im not flying the flag for any instructor, but will give credit where its due) but he made it crystal clear on the does and donts and made sure you knew the drills, and couldclearly execute them in OW before he signed me off. Surely the instructor in question was lacking the knowledge needed to train divers on a specific unit. Agencies are like little fractions that pop up and say their training is better and more thorough than the others, but in many cases, you can apply for a cross over and have be awarded Instructional Merit with them, and they would have not seen you even get wet or demonstrate skills! This is the failure of the agencies and unless things change,more divers may go the self taught route and rely on their own knowledge to get there.