27th of December 2006

[Miss Roxy Chablis]

For example, the oft-lauded point of being able to "just jump in" with another GUE-trained diver seemed to have happened here (but correct me if I have the wrong end of the stick)

Wrong end of the stick - they didn't just jump in - the dive was planned carefully from what I've heard from some of those involved
A 9m a minute ascent rate to deep stops was taught to us a Tech 1 quite clearly by Kerslake.
The words "stop fannying about and get a f*cking move on" were used tenderly as I recall
Judging 9m a minute is a different thing - it's a lot quicker than many people realise as I think Chasey has pointed out before

[Lou]

Originally Posted by Howard Payne

Wrong end of the stick - they didn't just jump in - the dive was planned carefully from what I've heard from some of those involved
A 9m a minute ascent rate to deep stops was taught to us a Tech 1 quite clearly by Kerslake.
The words "stop fannying about and get a f*cking move on" were used tenderly as I recall
Judging 9m a minute is a different thing - it's a lot quicker than many people realise as I think Chasey has pointed out before

Hoooo-key. So in Tech-1, despite being taught a 9 m/min ascent rate, were you not held to this? Something happened that made it a shock to Mark to actually ascend at 9 m/min. This is the bit I am unclear on?

[Scubee]

Originally Posted by Howard Payne

Judging 9m a minute is a different thing - it's a lot quicker than many people realise as I think Chasey has pointed out before

The Suunto bollocks you for exceeding 9mpm, but is OK at 8mpm, which helps. it is a lot faster, and certainly leads people to think they have had a 'rapid ascent' when they could well have simply gone a bit faster than they are used to.

Padi (and possibly other agencies, i don't know) teach the maximum ascent rate as 18mpm, which I think causes confusion when divers start using a computer that tells them the went too quick at 9mpm.

Sorry... a bit off topic

[Steve S]

Originally Posted by Janos

1) The skipper and divers on board should have called the CG when you surfaced.

2) Your buddies should have established exactly what happened, including whether the CG had been called and whether the chopper was on it's way when they surfaced.

3) Other divers on board should have made their views more strongly known.

4) No-one should have listed to you or asked your opinion! (As you're the casualty).

5) Even if the CG had not be called, or a chopper not sent, one person should have taken responsibility for monitoring you throughout the trip back, including regular neuro-checks, monitoring of fluids, etc etc etc. I'm not sure who this person should be.

Hi Mark,

firstly I'm glad you are well and that you survived your ordeal, we learn from our mistakes and those of others, Janoos's quote above sums it up for me especially number 4.

AFAIC a casualty in denial can give others around them a cop out so it's best to ignore them.......unless they are showing symptoms obviously.

Most boats I've been on in the past would have called the CG on that amount of missed stops alone but definitely when you went on 02.

Originally Posted by Janos

A trick I'm using is to pretend that Mark was wearing a bungied wing.

Fcuk all wrong with bungied wings Bro'

Originally Posted by Howard Payne

GUE here need to watch this particularly because I think in a lot of our heads there is a feeling that "I'm GUE tech trained - I shouldn't have cock ups" and that carries an unhelpful burden of responsibility not to be frank - above all with ourselves.

That is the most sensible thing you've posted in days.

Originally Posted by Howard Payne

We all have a stake in each other and we all want basically the same thing - we just have different views about how to achieve it?

And that's another. ATEOTD it doesn't matter how you do it as long as it's safe, something we all should bare in mind.

Safe diving,
Steve

[Fiona]

Originally Posted by paul oliver

Its all quite simple here, we had supposedly well qualified buddies not making a pretty damn obvious call that could well have been life threatening or lead to a major disability, almost certainly due to ego's i cannot see any other reason

Originally Posted by Janos

I didn't (and still don't) think it's my decision. It's the responsibility of the buddies. I can offer my knowledge and experience to them, but ultimately it's their call.

Janos

Since the incident involving SteveS has also been mentioned the buddy was me, so it was my responsibility to ensure Steve was OK. I didn't and felt bad about it when eventually I realised how bad Steve was, It is a day I will never forget. I live with it all the time - I did nothing. It is easy in hindsight to say the it is the responsibility of the buddy, I was on the boat with Steve, Mark's buddies were not.

The day before I had assisted an unknown diver to the surface who was not even on our boat, the day after I did nothing to help a friend.

Paul I find your post both agressive and upsetting.

[Scubee]

Originally Posted by Fiona

Since the incident involving SteveS has also been mentioned the buddy was me, so it was my responsibility to ensure Steve was OK. I didn't and felt bad about it when eventually I realised how bad Steve was, It is a day I will never forget. I live with all the time - I did nothing. It is easy in hindsight to say the it is the responsibility of the buddy, I was on the boat with Steve, Mark's buddies were not.

The day before I had assisted an unknown diver to the surface who was not even on our boat, the day after I did nothing to help a friend.

Nobody is perfect - all we can do is learn from our mistakes and hope others can too. I don't think it is solely the buddies responsibility - it is down to all those present to pay attention to what is going on and deal with it.

[Adrian Kelland]

Originally Posted by Fiona

Paul I find your post both agressive and upsetting.

I think this comes down to the words we will all tend to use at some time or other that the truth hurts Fiona. Much of the hurt we put on ourselves.

Adrian

[Steve S]

Originally Posted by Fiona

Since the incident involving SteveS has also been mentioned the buddy was me, so it was my responsibility to ensure Steve was OK. I didn't and felt bad about it when eventually I realised how bad Steve was, It is a day I will never forget. I live with it all the time - I did nothing. It is easy in hindsight to say the it is the responsibility of the buddy, I was on the boat with Steve, Mark's buddies were not.

The day before I had assisted an unknown diver to the surface who was not even on our boat, the day after I did nothing to help a friend.

Paul I find your post both agressive and upsetting.

Hi Fi,

please don't upset yourself over it, there was nothing you or anyone else could have done for me at that time, I just assumed it was vertigo due to an equalisation problem and certainly not DCS, and when I realised it was probably more serious I was in the grip of denial, and trying to hide it, so it was my fault alone that I didn't get help sooner.

Safe diving,
Steve

[Sparky750]

Originally Posted by Steve S

Hi Fi,

please don't upset yourself over it, there was nothing you or anyone else could have done for me at that time, I just assumed it was vertigo due to an equalisation problem and certainly not DCS, and when I realised it was probably more serious I was in the grip of denial, and trying to hide it, so it was my fault alone that I didn't get help sooner.

Safe diving,
Steve

Aha the wok bellied dive buddha takes it on the chin seriously though i'd like to think a buddy would make the call just in case Fi has admitted with hindsight this is what she should of done and hats off to her for it (hindsight is a wonderful thing). Mistakes do happen and everyone makes mistakes regardless of the agency although certain members of certain agencies do behave like they don't sometimes certainly not all hence all the arguments on here. Quite frankly if you feck up take it on the chin i couldn't care if your GUE or YMCA you will feck it up occasionally the good thing is everyone can hopefully learn from your mistakes that's why this forum is here, so can we please cut out the dick swinging etc everyone say sorry group hug and get back to keeping this place the great place it is normally without the infighting and agency slagging off.


if not then i'll start all gue are gay

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Al_Star

Mark's buddies surfaced 25 minutes after him and immediately asked how he was and how far away was the chopper. They were told he was fine and the chopper had not been called. Should they have overidden the skipper decision?

Al

Thats bullshit

I spoke to the skipper at the time and he said its up to them to ask. Something i agree with.

I beleive Janos also spoke to the skipper.

ATB

Mark