27th of December 2006

[Mal Bridgeman]

The diver *controls* his own deco. A team member runs the agreed deco but it's a team agreement .... you want a bit more .... you get a bit more.

to Nick's point ...again an oft misinterpreted thing.....going up a tunnel in a cave you have to break trim same thing in the ocean to dump gas ...... a buoyant ascent in good trim is kind of silly .... at least Mark had the courtesy to do it feet first re-establishing trim afterwards is important though for all the reasons you should have good trim in the first place.
Mal

Originally Posted by JasonP

Hmm, I'm not sure who the elite crowd are. However, I don't think I'm one of them.

Anyway, I thought the report was interesting. I was struck by how I couldn't see the same thing happening to a non-GUE UK technical diver. The mindset was completely different. I would much rather dive with a decent buddy than solo, but even then, the idea that someone else is controlling my deco and my ascent rate is completely alien to me. If I was diving with someone, especially someone I didn't know, and they started going up too fast, I wouldn't go with them. Absolutely no way.

That said, 9m/min isn't fast. I know people trained a few years back that used to punch it up from depth at 20m/min. PADI standard ascent rate is still 18m/min.

Jason

[Janos]

Well done for posting Mark. An incident like that would shake anyone up and so it's good that you're back in the water

I was on board that day and for the real learning for me was what happened on the boat afterwards. I surfaced (with Chasey and Howard?) to find you on O2. I remember being surprised that the coastguard hadn't been called. This is obviously no reflection on you as the casualty should not be the one making these decisions. Instead I remember confusion as to what we should be doing. IIRC I don't think we even did a neuro exam on you for 20 minutes or so [1]

It really struck home to me the value of having a proper BSAC-style "Dive Marshall" on a trip who takes responsiblity for the diving. My recollections was that I wanted to call the coastguard, suggested it a few times, but as I was not in a position of authority did not feel that I could insist on it. I know others on board felt the same way.

Certainly I feel that when booking on as a buddy pair on a boat of individuals, even on a YD trip, then I would be less likely to get proper care in the event of an incident than on a marshalled club trip. Indeed I used this case (with no specifics) when teaching Dive Leader theory on why we have dive marshalls.

Well done for posting once again.

Janos

PS - I recognise of course that there are none-BSAC marshalls - on some of the gas-diving trips I go on there's a clear procedure and a de-facto dive marshall for example.

[1] I'll hold my hand up and I'll say I performed it very badly. Embarassingly so, but I've since practiced it more

[JasonP]

Originally Posted by Mal Bridgeman

[color=DARKRED] The diver *controls* his own deco. A team member runs the agreed deco but it's a team agreement .... you want a bit more .... you get a bit more.

However, there is a lot more peer pressure to conform compared with the typical non-DIR UK technical diver who is far more independant.

Originally Posted by Mal Bridgeman

to Nick's point ...again an oft misinterpreted thing.....going up a tunnel in a cave you have to break trim same thing in the ocean to dump gas ...... a buoyant ascent in good trim is

Except that going up a tunnel in a cave, trim is still very important. You don't want to kick the bottom if you can possibly avoid it. Going up in mid-water, it really doesn't matter.

Jason

[Getafix]

An interesting and sobering tale. I'm glad it didn't have a worse outcome.

I think most instructors and tec trained divers would know that the chances of getting off without any medical treatment from a near 45m 30 min dive and little deco followed by a 60m/min ascent direct to the surface are pretty slim..... you can't rely on the diver concerned to be completly on the case, we all know that denial happens easily in these situations, this is when you start to value your buddies.

I presume after the initial shock had worn off and your buddies joined you about 25 mins later that the details of the dive were digested and they suggested the helicopter option, or at least contacting Haslar via the Coastguard for advice, and this is when you declined the offer? I'm surprised that they were not more forceful in taking charge at this point for your well-being.

It's good that you got back in and have carried on diving however. A good post, one for some thought.

Alan

[Diving Dude]

This thread 25 replies.

Bug Si's about his muppetry 97

Howard Juniors thread about Bug Si's muppetry 158

What the feck is going on

[nickb]

Originally Posted by Diving Dude

This thread 25 replies.

Bug Si's about his muppetry 97

Howard Juniors thread about Bug Si's muppetry 158

What the feck is going on

Howard, I really think you need to start calming down mate; I don't believe there's any conspiracy going on. Maybe people have just had a gutsful and can't be bothered any more.

The 96 replies to Big Si's post were largely supportive and Howard Jnr's post may have been inspired by the incident but I read it as a timely warning to us all to take a bit of care about what we're doing; at what is, for most people, the start of the season. The 157 replies were mostly two factions slagging each other off and didn't do YD any favours at all.

Are you really hoping that people will pile in to this thread slagging off Mark or perhaps GUE? If so, start the ball rolling and let's see how much more we can piss each other off. If not, why not let it lie and let's start getting on with each other again.

I've got some Beta Blockers at home somewhere, should I send you a pack

[Diving Dude]

l was there.

There is a lot to learn from this incident that's maybe not obvious to most readers.

[nickb]

Originally Posted by Diving Dude

l was there.

There is a lot to learn from this incident that's maybe not obvious to most readers.

That's exactly what this forum was intended for. Mark's put it up here for discussion; let's get going.

I'd be interested to know for starters why someone didn't just take the initiative and call for the chopper. I doubt there was much conversation about anything else to distract you all.

It's already been pointed out that the victim is the person LEAST likely to be able to make the appropriate decision. On a BSAC boat, the call would have been made by the Dive Marshall, although I'd expect the skipper to do so if the DM thought all was well and s/he disagreed.

I no longer dive with BSAC, most of my diving is done with other YDers and I'd hate to think if I was in a similar position, the rest of the guys on the boat would be unable to come to a decision. I get the feeling that there's a suggestion that, as a GUE-trained diver was involved, only another GUE diver could make the call and everyone else washed their hands of it. I don't believe that you guys would have done that if you'd known how serious the situation was; at least I hope not.

[Paul Oliver]

Well i have to agree with the Dud there would appear to be a lot of mistakes made on this dive, as much in the follow up as in the incident itself and i have to very much go along with Janos about the Dive Marshall element, in my branch we have had several far less serious incidents, the last on the Maloja was a rapid ascent from 18m to surface after a 30 min dive to a max of 21m.

In this instance i was the buddy and Dive Marshall (Deputy on the boat) and the DO. We had booked out with Dover Coastguard as per Solas 5 and once i was on the boat i found they had laid the casualty down and were observing him, but as it was a no-stop dive and he had not left the water like a polaris missile they had not done any more.

Once in the boat i get him put on O2, laid down properly (one of the others noticed as he was head towards the stern his feet were up) and got Dover Coastguard to sort me out a radio/telephone patch to the Duty Dive Doc.

We had a conversation and as we were just outside Dover Harbour the Doc decided not to get a chopper out, we took him in and were met by the ambulance the Coastguard had organised (1), he then went off to A&E for further examination.

(1) Dover Coastguard was able to monitor everything as i was doing it via their control room over the radio.

Now i am not saying this because i think i was clever, just to show how VERY easy it is to hand the whole incident over to the EXPERTS to make the decisions. But command of the situation has to be taken, it was easy for me as Dive Marshal and Diving Officer, but a lot harder on a charter, even more so when i suspect some ego's were in denial.

[Paul Oliver]

I also have to add that the lack of a sea dive for 6 months is a bit of a surprise for this kind of dive, so last sea dive in May? Maybe build up dives are better spent in the same environment ie The Sea? as the conditions were certainly a big factor and maybe puddle prep leaves a little to be desired before a fairly major dive.