27th of December 2006

[GLOC]

Okay, I'll bite. However, Howard I agree, there hasn't been much comment because I believe alot of what happened has been discussed off-line but that means that other people can't learn from the discussions, therefore I am going to comment.

Mark wasn't wise to dive this profile without some build up dives. He admits that he wasn't dive 'fit' considering he hadn't dived it for x months before hand. In addition, he says that trying to oralling inflate a 6' bag wasn't the brightest of ideas. But it might have been safer than trying to inflate with a hose. Personal pride, which is a downfall of us all (and something which prevents us from posting of our own f*ck_ups on here), may have had something to do with the reluctance to ask someone else to bag up.

I also know that one of the two team members remaining was very close to running out of deco gas as they were very stressed about their buddy conducting a polaris. However Howard the comment you made about the buddy seperation I think is unjustifed; do you want 3 people on the surface because they have missed their stops or one person who has been dealt with by the surface support? In my opinion, the others did what was required of them, hard as it may seem, and stay to complete their stops. (This depends on whether you know the skipper is a switched on cookie or a muppet!!)

I still believe in what Howard said, deco dives need to be taken seriously and having a 6 month lay-off before doing a 45m dive is not a good idea. I think Mark has got that. Anyone else who is planning on doing something similar - 6 months off diving to a representative depth and the required skills is not a good idea!

Regarding the follow-up I cannot comment other than to say that the CG should have probably been called considering what happened. I hope that I would have the moral courage to stand up and say 'Bollocks, call the CG' if this had happened when I was there.

Regards

[Mick F]

Originally Posted by stevechesh

99% of the skippers i know, would call the coastguard straight away. There may be a few that won't through for fear of tarnishing a reputation.

an example: I was on Scimitar (Portland/Weymouth, with Smudge the skipper) in May last year. Inshort a yellow blob was sent up by one of the divers who had a potential problem, but not an immediate problem. Either way, Smudge called the coastguard as soon as he saw the blob and they the helicopter was put on standby (we were 35 miles offshshore). The thing is, it costs £00.00p for us here if we need a rescue. If we don't use it, then the bean counters will remove the facility fro us. (yep, i know it comes out of our taxes, but the aircraft have to be ready at all times, and the aircrew have to fly a minimum hours per month, rescue or not, to stay current)

That's exactly what I mean. From talking to the CG here, they want to be notified as soon as possible about any potential incidents rather than waiting until a full blown emergency has developed.

[Diving Dude]

Originally Posted by GLOC

I also know that one of the two team members remaining was very close to running out of deco gas as they were very stressed about their buddy conducting a polaris.

Just goes to show that purging the reg on the boat to lower the stage pressure in a deco tank to 170bar so it's neutrally buoyant, as one of Marks team did, is not a good idea.

Originally Posted by GLOC

However Howard the comment you made about the buddy seperation I think is unjustifed; do you want 3 people on the surface because they have missed their stops

It is a judgement call on the day, which is what most people have said.
However this has been discussed to death years ago and at times it seemed to get into a Gue vs the rest argument, the Gue divers mostly saying stay with your team, this is what l couldn't understand, Marks team doing something different to what we'd been led to believe would happen.

Funy thing is after that dive not one of the rebreather divers on board took the piss out of a Gue diver having a rapid ascent, but a gue diver took the piss out of the fact that a couple of the rebreathers wern't working 100% so the divers canned the dive. l thought questioning why a dive was canned was a no no.

[Paul Oliver]

Originally Posted by Diving Dude

Just goes to show that purging the reg on the boat to lower the stage pressure in a deco tank to 170bar so it's neutrally buoyant, as one of Marks team did, is not a good idea.

Looking good must be better than unwanted gas, only 5-10 min at 6m worth of gas binned?

[Scubee]

Originally Posted by stevechesh

99% of the skippers i know, would call the coastguard straight away. There may be a few that won't through for fear of tarnishing a reputation.

an example: I was on Scimitar (Portland/Weymouth, with Smudge the skipper) in May last year. Inshort a yellow blob was sent up by one of the divers who had a potential problem, but not an immediate problem. Either way, Smudge called the coastguard as soon as he saw the blob and they the helicopter was put on standby (we were 35 miles offshshore). The thing is, it costs £00.00p for us here if we need a rescue. If we don't use it, then the bean counters will remove the facility fro us. (yep, i know it comes out of our taxes, but the aircraft have to be ready at all times, and the aircrew have to fly a minimum hours per month, rescue or not, to stay current)

Ditto to that... I was on Goose in September last year, and one of the group sent up a yellow blob. The skipper sent for the chopper that time, too. Their incident (which was a non-issue as well) gave a fair few of us somethign to think about.

i suspect that things may change, though as the new heli at Portland apparently only has room for one casualty lying down. That may leave a buddy in a bit of a spot.

[GLOC]

Originally Posted by Diving Dude

Just goes to show that purging the reg on the boat to lower the stage pressure in a deco tank to 170bar so it's neutrally buoyant, as one of Marks team did, is not a good idea.

I was not there so I don't know what the starting pressure was of the deco gas, but I knw the individual was very stressed and worried about Mark so much so that they chewed through their deco gas.

I made the comment not to have a go at reducing the deco gas required, because 1.5x deco gas requirement is planned for, but because it highlights the fact that it isn't only the person who has had the stressful incident (Mark in this case (actually he didn't need his deco gas ) that will go through their gas, it could be other members in the team (GUE or not) that have an increased breathing rate)

I am not sure about the arguments, as I haven't been there, but it has got to be a real personal decision. Personally if it was the guys I dive regularily I would probably (but can't guarantee) surface with them, and then descend to do missed stops procedure.

Which reminds me, I need to re-read up on that! (See, we always need to keep learning).

If you want to can a dive, I have no problem. Anyone can can the dive, and if that means I need to can the dive, so be it. I might be a little peeved if I can't dive with anyone else, but hey, better than looking over a 6ft pit with a box in it going, 'Bollocks, I wish I had listened to him/her when they said they didn't want to dive'. A wreck will always be there, your life/buddy might not be.

Regards

[stevechesh]

Scubee, and anyone else looking in. There was a recent event where someone (a mate of mine) had a very rapid ascent. I'm not going to go into specifics, but part of a "potting" sometimes calls for a coastguard debrief as well:

However, here is a snippet which will affect us all:

I have had a very rigerous debrief from the Coast guard who say our practices are " unacceptable ". No dive superviser to oversee things. He would be non diving. No crew member to support the skipper. They are doing a safety review and at sometime will be making recommendations. Long term this could change our hobby drastically

[stevechesh]

Originally Posted by GLOC

,snip.......
If you want to can a dive, I have no problem. Anyone can can the dive, and if that means I need to can the dive, so be it. I might be a little peeved if I can't dive with anyone else, but hey, better than looking over a 6ft pit with a box in it going, 'Bollocks, I wish I had listened to him/her when they said they didn't want to dive'. A wreck will always be there, your life/buddy might not be.

Regards

And that's a statement that should be re-inforced. If nothing else, diving regardles of agency/age/sexual orientation! (Steady on Finless!)/ blah blah blah, is supposed to be FUN! we can always go back afterwards. Can't do that if you are dead!

[gobfish1]

Originally Posted by Paul Oliver

Looking good must be better than unwanted gas, only 5-10 min at 6m worth of gas binned?

must have been a small deco cylinders then ,, i would think for a 45m dive divers would be using a ali80 gue and all ,, if thats the case , then you.re looking at a good 25mis of gas down the drain ,

most of us are pumping deco cylinders to 250bar or as much as we can get in the cylinder ,, i think it v strange that some one would dump gas,, out of a deco cylinder ,, must have more money than the rest of us ,,

looking to is a must for all divers when in the pub ,, and that the only time,
i dump gas ,, 10 pints of the black stuff and i let of about 120 bars

ps

i think its bad form to rip into a diver the has fucked up on a dive ,,
be it gue or stroke ,, taking the piss is ok ,

[Janos]

Originally Posted by stevechesh

99% of the skippers i know, would call the coastguard straight away. There may be a few that won't through for fear of tarnishing a reputation.

I think this is a very high estimate. I admit that I have a conservative attitude, but I would say that I would only have confidence in around 2/3s of skippers calling the Coastguard. The remaining 1/3 would need badgering.

But that's fair enough. It's not their job to deal with Rescue scenarios etc, it's their job to take us out, shot the wreck, and drive the boat back.

Janos