27th of December 2006

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by nickb

9m/min is a fairly standard rate across agencies these days, is it not.

Until you're used to doing it, it does seem pretty quick but you really don't want to be hanging about racking up more deco.

Mark, were you already GUE trained at the time?

9-10 M/min is indeed a standard ascent rate for the deep portion of most agencies.

If you analise Marks ascent he only acheived 6m/min in 2.5mins he ascended 15m

I have looked at a LOT of my ascents and I have to say it is very hard to comfortably acheive 9m/min. When I did I felt it was scary fast.


I program in 5m/min ascent for my bailout options as I feel its more realistic.

ATB

Mark

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by nickb

I know you guys prefer Turbo Soles, but with a good-fitting pair of Rock Boots this can't happen. I thought about switching to Turbo Soles when my suit went to Hydrotech over the New Year but the chap there strongly advised against it.

You fellas pride yourselves on always having good trim but I can't help thinking that this must lead to some peer-pressure to always look good, when a quick change to a more vertical posture would have nipped this problem in the bud early.

There is no point in having flat trim on deco ascent and as you rightly say it puts you in a position which reduces the effective dumping of wing and dry suit.

Being vertical obviously isn't ideal for off gassing but 20-30 degrees makes bugger all difference and tends to keep the gas in a dumpable position.

Flat trim is very important for wreck penetration and cave diving and the only reason I look for flat trim on deco is practice for doing just that. Having watched 20year vets clip off to a bag go negative and fall asleep doing three hours of deco, (with no apparent symptoms) I am not 100% convinced its a big issue for deco either

ATB

Mark

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Janos

Well done for posting Mark. An incident like that would shake anyone up and so it's good that you're back in the water

I was on board that day and for the real learning for me was what happened on the boat afterwards. I surfaced (with Chasey and Howard?) to find you on O2. I remember being surprised that the coastguard hadn't been called. This is obviously no reflection on you as the casualty should not be the one making these decisions. Instead I remember confusion as to what we should be doing. IIRC I don't think we even did a neuro exam on you for 20 minutes or so [1]

It really struck home to me the value of having a proper BSAC-style "Dive Marshall" on a trip who takes responsiblity for the diving. My recollections was that I wanted to call the coastguard, suggested it a few times, but as I was not in a position of authority did not feel that I could insist on it. I know others on board felt the same way.

Certainly I feel that when booking on as a buddy pair on a boat of individuals, even on a YD trip, then I would be less likely to get proper care in the event of an incident than on a marshalled club trip. Indeed I used this case (with no specifics) when teaching Dive Leader theory on why we have dive marshalls.

Well done for posting once again.

Janos

PS - I recognise of course that there are none-BSAC marshalls - on some of the gas-diving trips I go on there's a clear procedure and a de-facto dive marshall for example.

[1] I'll hold my hand up and I'll say I performed it very badly. Embarassingly so, but I've since practiced it more

I also felt the cost guard should have been called.

However its not my call. If the chopper is called the diver +his buddies should get on the chopper with him. Then they end up at god knows which pot and we need to sort out their gear and transport and get the divers and their transport back together. Then theirs the issue of loved ones in a panic because boyfriend/son/husband has injured himself diving.

This is not a decision to be taken lightly and I can well understand a diver deciding to wait if hes got symptoms first.


So why did i feel the chopper should have been called?

Because the diver didn't go back down and do missed deco and because the deco missed was on a fairly aggressive schedule anyway QED he miss a serious amount of deco.

Thats to say:

Missing 30mins of deco on a 20/80GF is bad

Missing 30mins of deco on a 10/100GF is serious

Also if it were my buddy id be giving encouragement to go but ultimately accepting his decision unless symptoms were evident. On this occasion I felt the buddies were making light of the incident so the direction of the encouragement was the other way.

I wont get thanked for saying that but thats the way i saw it.

ATB

Mark


PS: I am with DAN insurance. They will transport me from which ever chamber i end up in home or back to my car.

Often for me the chamber could well be in France.

ATB

Mark

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Diving Dude

This thread 25 replies.

Bug Si's about his muppetry 97

Howard Juniors thread about Bug Si's muppetry 158

What the feck is going on

It didnt show up on my new threads link????? Thanks for letting me know it was posted I had been looking out for it.

ATB

Mark

[big_si]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

It didnt show up on my new threads link????? Thanks for letting me know it was posted I had been looking out for it.

ATB

Mark

I'm not sure why but the 'I learn about diving from that...' bit doesn't appear on the new threads. I guess it's because it's more of a 'reference' forum than a conversation thread? I'm not sure.

Si

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by GLOC

However Howard the comment you made about the buddy seperation I think is unjustifed; do you want 3 people on the surface because they have missed their stops or one person who has been dealt with by the surface support? In my opinion, the others did what was required of them, hard as it may seem, and stay to complete their stops. (This depends on whether you know the skipper is a switched on cookie or a muppet!!)

Regards

One of the buddies had stated in an earlier discussion that he wouldn't think twice about blowing off deco and surfacing to ensure the buddy wasn't face down and drowning.

That didn't happen.

I would have.

The fact they apparently heard the boat and the lift means nothing. Thee skipper could have been trying to gaff an unconscious diver face down due to his wing and drag him on to the lift.

By virtue of the nature of GUE dives to this depth its likely there was no one else on the boat to assist.

If this happened to me id know id be doing by far the longest run time and by the 15m stop theres a very good chance others are on the boat. With such a short run time it was more likely there wasn't.


Teem seporation does apply IMHO.

ATB

Mark

[Janos]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

Also if it were my buddy id be giving encouragement to go but ultimately accepting his decision unless symptoms were evident.

I disagree with this. The casualty is not in a position to make any sort of decision. Denial is a symptom of the bends, and if they have a neuro hit then this may affect their decision making capacity.

Reread Steve S's account of his LITTLE BEND and see how strong denial can be.

Janos

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Diving Dude

Just goes to show that purging the reg on the boat to lower the stage pressure in a deco tank to 170bar so it's neutrally buoyant, as one of Marks team did, is not a good idea.

Id forgoten that, good point.

ATB

Mark

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Janos

I disagree with this. The casualty is not in a position to make any sort of decision. Denial is a symptom of the bends, and if they have a neuro hit then this may affect their decision making capacity.

Reread Steve S's account of his LITTLE BEND and see how strong denial can be.

Janos

Your absolutly right M8 but I am being honist about what id do. If i insisted we got a chopper for D or T theyd probably beat the crap out of me


ATB

Mark

[Mark Chase]

The mistakes made here are as aparent as the ones Si made.

Inadiquate diver preporation:

• You cant train for deep 9m/min ascents in Vobster

Lack of proper dive planning:

• Failure to identifie a diver whos not dive fit
  
• Failure to discuss decompresion plan properly (but shuld Mark have expected a 9m/min)
  
• Poor training,
  
  Mark wasent prepaired for a 9m/min ascent and as a Tec1 qualified diver he should have been. The ascent didnt even get close to as fast as it should have been for a "Ratio Deco" ascent, but Mark felt "He didnt normaly ascend this fast". QED hes been doing ratio deco wrong till now or hed not done it for so long hed forgoten what its like.
  
  
• Failure of the team to agree standards for emergancy situations

IMHO: Mark made a very bad call after the incident.

• Option1: Go back down and do missed deco procedure

NOTE: teem were not carrying enough deco gas to do a missed deco procedure and didnt have a drop tank with them. Bad dive planning again.)

• Option2: Get on the boat and call the chopper.
  
  
• Option 3: there is no option 3

IMHO: The teem shoud have got shalow enough to ensure the diver was safe and being rescued.


IMHO: The teem should have insisted he went to the pot.



Why am i beeing so hard? Because i prompted this thread on the bassis it dispelled Howard P view that GUE has got it right.

This is just human error, nothing to do with GUE.

I have done worse myself.

ATB

Mark