The Instructor Debate

[Mark Chase]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Andrew H

I'm not going to take anything personally which is posted here,

Good because were not discussing you, were discussing the system. You are not to blame for working within the system.

ATB

Mark Chase

[Steve S]

I undertook my AI course after 2 years of diving and approx 120 dives I instructed under the eye of an OWI for 2 more years[ because of my diabetes] and finally became an OWI myself after completing some 400+ dives.

This worked for me and as any instructor will tell you some people are more suited to diving /instructing than others so obviously some people will be ready to instruct after 13 weeks and as long as their initial OWI assesment was fair and they teach in the conditions they learned and dive regularly in IMO this is in most instances ok.

Where I can see a potential problem is when someone who has qualified to instruct mainly in inland sites and who then goes on to instruct in the sea could be pushing the envelope.

The other side of the coin is the "book diver" who reads and retains all manner of dive related knowledge and passes exams with ease but cannot then translate it into practical terms, IME these are the ones who when fast tracked are the biggest liabilities.

Bottom line there has to be some minimum criteria for OWI some will be fine with that and some unfortunately not ready.

Safe diving,
Steve.

[Andrew H]

It strikes me that many of the issues mentioned are the result of the length of courses rather than the experience of the instructor per se. What divers do after their open water is extremely important in their development. In NZ many divers will dive with their mates for crayfish and scallops, and may or may not improve as divers. Training such as advanced and deep diving sets them up much better. In England with a good deal of wreck diving, either in a club environment or off charter boats, the situation is different. Resort diving is different again. If you dive with the same people every time as in NZ skills will stagnate. In England skills should develop better under pressure from other divers.

In technical training the rule seems to be get a good instructor. Sound advice indeed. Very few top instructors will teach at open water level. Why would they want to? I can understand the appeal of teaching technical diving to highly enthusiastic students, and although open water students are enthusiastic I'm not sure that they are all skill and learning motivated. Maybe this is a good case for the PADI scuba diver qual. If students did 20 dives before completing their open water they would all be better divers.

Personally I doubt if I will instruct again. With the time and money constraints I now have I would rather dive for myself. I would cheerfully give up pool and classroom time, but weekends are so much more precious. Maybe as I get older...

Andrew

[miketsp]

Fast tracking has it's place but I don't believe in it for critical activities - like diving.

A learning process takes place on two levels - conscious and sub-conscious.
This is well accepted and if you want an example of the practical application of this go and do any creative thinking course. You are taught to brainstorm, generate ideas and then let the subconscious process take over. I've seen this in practice many times. It really works.

The mind is a wonderful tool which continues to process input on a sub-concious level after the event.

Example - if you take 2 divers, one doing 100 dives over 2 months and the other doing the same 100 dives over 12 months, the former will apparently come up the learning curve faster but the latter will actually assimilate much more and be able to adapt the knowledge to new situations.

I had a similar experience with flying. When I was 17 I won a scholarship to get my private pilot's license and the hours were done intensively over about 3 weeks. At the end of 3 weeks I passed the theoretical and practical tests with no problem. But - 2 months later I had forgotten most of what I had learned because there was no real sub-conscious absorbtion.

When I later restarted flying at a much slower rate, the experiences were worth much more.

[Andy Phillips]

I tried to resist this thread, but I can't.

To be honest I find the PADI system shocking, and I am / was PADI trained. Fast tracking of instuctors, is, in my opinion, a very bad thing. There was a point, not so long ago that I decided I wanted to instuct, my theory was that I had got so much out of diving that I wanted to put something back. Sadly I felt driven out of the system. There were far to many people, DM's AI's and instrctors who were simply awful divers, OK, they were able to teach an OW course, but not any of my family, no way. I kept going, all the way but I vowed never to be involved in the system again. The minimum level of ability required by the system is dire, only rescued by the fact that a large number go on to work abroad, dive vast amounts and gain the necessary experience.

I am now firmly of the opinion that the PADI system fails UK divers. Unless the course is modified to suit the enviroment the divers are being trained for there will always be too many "qualified" divers getting in the water who are simply accidents waiting to happen.

Sorry to sound a negative note, but like Daz I have become "soured" by my experiences.

As a side note though, I did meet a couple of instrutors whome I would dive with, so there is/was some light at the end of the very long, very dark tunnel.

Andrew

[Narked@50]

Originally Posted by imported_andyp

I am now firmly of the opinion that the PADI system fails UK divers. Unless the course is modified to suit the enviroment the divers are being trained for there will always be too many "qualified" divers getting in the water who are simply accidents waiting to happen.
Andrew

I'm not going to have a go at anyone or any agency, and I am myself am qualified with both PADI and BSAC, being an instructor for the latter, and here's the reason!

I was officialy taught to dive in the UK to OW PADI standard, went abroad, jumped out of a boat in 30m of water, and only then realised that I had no idea what the hell I was doing? The only person I blame is the instructor who, on reflection, was crap. I told myself I would never be like that and have taken pride in qualifying divers who reach the required standard and giving them knowledge way beyond what is in the books though not demanding it for the qualification. (I can pick who I train)

One thing I heard a "poor" PADI instructor say to a newly qualified instructor was "Don't take students to the depths of the qualification they are doing, there's nothing in the book to say you have to do 18m with a student, 6m is fine - just in case." Hmm, this seems vaguely familiar?

James

[Diving Dude]

Originally Posted by imported_andyp

......................... I wanted to instuct..........

Andy mate, this is the funniest thing you've ever posted.

Anyone that has met you knows that you don't do mornings.....................................eveni ngs are a bit dodgy as well.................................and as for middays................

[Andrew H]

Originally Posted by miketsp

Fast tracking has it's place but I don't believe in it for critical activities - like diving.

A learning process takes place on two levels - conscious and sub-conscious.
This is well accepted and if you want an example of the practical application of this go and do any creative thinking course. You are taught to brainstorm, generate ideas and then let the subconscious process take over. I've seen this in practice many times. It really works.

The mind is a wonderful tool which continues to process input on a sub-concious level after the event.

Example - if you take 2 divers, one doing 100 dives over 2 months and the other doing the same 100 dives over 12 months, the former will apparently come up the learning curve faster but the latter will actually assimilate much more and be able to adapt the knowledge to new situations.

I had a similar experience with flying. When I was 17 I won a scholarship to get my private pilot's license and the hours were done intensively over about 3 weeks. At the end of 3 weeks I passed the theoretical and practical tests with no problem. But - 2 months later I had forgotten most of what I had learned because there was no real sub-conscious absorbtion.

When I later restarted flying at a much slower rate, the experiences were worth much more.

Certainly some truth in this, although we all learn in different ways. I guess it's a bit like cramming for exams. It may help you the following day but will all be gone within a week. Obviously if you continue to use what you have been taught regularly, your retention will be much better.

As James says, having pride in your work is essential if you are to produce good results. I'm sure we're all aware that a strict pass/fail on try one could all to easily be relaxed by try twenty. Within the confines of the course it is quite a challenge to turn out compitant divers I think the BSAC system acknowledges this with ocean/sport etc. (not too clear on all that myself)

knid of surprised to hear that you met AI's with poor skills. DM's sure, but AI's are qualified by staff instructors or above, and they really should know better. That said I have heard tales of course director trainees with poor skills. This must happen regardless of organisation surely. NZ has one instructor examiner, so NZ trained instructors should be fairly consistant in this respect. I am starting to feel lucky at the way my training has progressed since many of you seem to have had bad experiences.

Andrew

[daz]

Originally Posted by Andrew H

I am starting to feel lucky at the way my training has progressed since many of you seem to have had bad experiences.
Andrew

Generally people will always remember the bad experiences instructors/AI's/DM's but not comment on the perfectly adaquate ones. Unfortunately in diving I don't think there is room for even one mediochre instructor due to the repurcussions.

Daz

[TerryH]

Number of dives is a pretty inept way of marking diving skill. I keep reading
100/200 being considered as some sort of standard to do Instructor courses,
but the more courses are run back to back the greater the chance the dives
will be no more than 6m bimbles round the bay. After all what pro-outfit is going to risk clients with an unproved Instructor?

TerryH