The Instructor Debate

[Allan Carr]

Originally Posted by RickG

Perhaps instructors should only be qualified to teach as far as one grade below their own?

Totally agree. This works in the BSAC sytem but with PADI, instructor is a development on top of DM so an instructor could teach a DM course. I don't see how someone who was on a DM course only a few weeks before can be competent to teach a course which should be imparting techniques and experience rather than basic skills. Yes, a Sports Diver could do some of the basic pool training of an Ocean Diver such as mask clearing but certainly not beyond that. I think there is a benefit in getting new divers involved in this. basic instruction under a trained instructor quite early. That happened to me, which I found very useful.

A number of threads have referred to good divers/bad instructors and I've seen several cases of this. Just because someone is a very competent diver doesn't make them a good instructor. For several years, I stopped doing the basic training and concentrated on doing training for Dive Leaders and Advanced Divers. I was then asked to do some basic training because they were short of instructors and found it very difficult. I had lost the empathy with complete beginners and had to work very hard to redevelop teaching skills which had been second nature.

The danger of instructors with a limited range of experience was brought home to me 12 years ago on a dive on David Ainsley's Porpoise to the Garvellachs off Oban. This was a mixed party and I was diving with my 15 year old son (who had already done over 100 dives since he started at the beginning of the previous year). On this boat were two master instructors (their term) at Stoney Cove. They spent a lot of time telling everyone how good they were. The first dive was on the Steps. Three drops down to 42m. Fantastic dive. The two 'experts' stayed in the kelp at the top with a max depth of 11m. The second dive was a high speed drift - a real adrenalin rush. The 'experts' surfaced almost immediately and gave the come and get me signal. It turned out that this was their FIRST sea dive and FIRST boat dive!

[Mdemon]

Originally Posted by Conor

People can go straight to into the sea at OW and die. .

The BSAC Reports seem to show that anyone, regardless of training achieved can do just that. Given that, and the huge number of OW newbies each year, I don't see any reason to restrict them more than they already are. Sometimes, as you pointed out, the best way of learning is to just do it...

[Roobydoo]

Originally Posted by Scuba1

To right Conor

On the IDC you learn how to pass the IE and i think about the poor first students that the OWSI is teaching they really get the book thrown at them until the instructor themselves become comfortable with the teaching and that takes time being an experieced diver helps a long way to being more comfortable about teaching. One of the candidates of an IDC actually failed the IE 2 weeks ago because she could not do a hover how sad is that.

Regards
Michael

You make a couple of valid points. Where I teach, we have a policy that all newly qualified instructors team teach with a more experienced instructor for a few courses. This not only helps the new instructor to see first hand how a course should be run, complete with a few "try this" tips, but it also protects the students from over enthusiasm and lack of actual teaching experience.

Same said new instructors are also not given the opportunity to teach trainee DM's for precisely the same reason. This is seen as progression once an instructor has "bedded in" and learned that passing an IE is only the beginning of the instruction ladder....

On another point. You mention that a candidate failed an IE for not being able to master the hover. Without knowing all the salient facts, I would suggest that it may have been a consistent failure, or only part of the problem. The IE allows re-attempts in a certain number of areas, as candidates suffer nerves etc just like everyone else.

One thing to consider though, is that the objective of the IE is to demonstrate MASTERY of a skill to demonstration standards. If a candidate cannot do this, one could ask the question, "should they be teaching it to a student?"

Just my 2 cents worth.

Steve

[Scuby]

I think the biggest problem with instructors from any agency is the ability to deal with the unexpected. It's fine to be able to teach anything in any course perfectly, you may be a very good instructor... until something goes wrong!
Our (BSAC Branch) DO didn't want to do the job anymore, and so agreed a Dive Leader that as soon as he was an OWI they'd change over the DO job. All seemed OK(ish), he could teach the basics well enough, but really had no idea about how to deal with things that weren't written down for him - just could not use judgement about anything. Any question anyone asks, if it isn't in the Instructor Manual his reply will be "I'll phone BSAC and check". We were out on a boat in Plymouth, with him having organised it, and we were in some fairly rough weather. There were a few more experienced divers on the boat, but we were basically trying to see how he'd cope. We sat, being thrown about in the boat and with someone feeling very ill for over 10 minutes, with him trying to decide whether or not to dive. The skipper was pushing for a decision, the more experienced divers on the boat were trying to get him to make the decision himself, and he just refused to do so saying that one of the more experienced should make the call. To me, that was dangerous, and eventually one of the other divers on the boat had to tell the skipper to turn back.

If we're getting people to instructor level too quickly, they haven't had time to be completely comfortable with their own skills, they won't have much experience in different conditions, they might not have watched other instructor's teachin techniques before they go out and do it themself... I'd never dream of letting an Assistant Instructor go off on their own even into Stoney to teach an Ocean Diver lesson (which they are qualified to do) unless i'd seen them teach those lessons myself (or another experienced instructor in the branch had). Is it really worth risking the safety of students (either during the lesson, or when diving afterwards) for the sake of taking one or two more dives to make sure these new instructors are OK in the water when they first take in 'real' students?

David

[johnkendall]

Originally Posted by wbsdave

I'd never dream of letting an Assistant Instructor go off on their own even into Stoney to teach an Ocean Diver lesson (which they are qualified to do) unless i'd seen them teach those lessons myself (or another experienced instructor in the branch had).

The bit you are missing here is that a) they need to be a DL as well as ADI, and b) it is under the supervision of an NQI.

This means there MUST be an NQI on site (at least) supervising the ADI. If that NQI is not happy that the ADI is up to teaching the skills, then they shouldn't allow the ADI to get in the water with the students.

HTH

John

[Fathoms Down]

Originally Posted by Roobydoo

Where I teach, we have a policy that all newly qualified instructors team teach with a more experienced instructor for a few courses. This not only helps the new instructor to see first hand how a course should be run, complete with a few "try this" tips, but it also protects the students from over enthusiasm and lack of actual teaching experience.

Its the same for where I teach and I think its a very good idea; in fact it is what we were advised to do by the PADI instructors after passing our IE.

[Andrew H]

I think many large LDS's use this sort of technique. Even if you have qualified as an instructor, you still have to find someone to teach or someone to employ you. The shop I taught for would have new instructors work up slowly through open water, advanced open water etc, and onto some specialties. Only senior instructors would teach divemasters. You would be free to find a divemaster student of your own if you wanted one, but you can be sure that the management would ask if you were sure you're up to it. It seem to me that new divers don't have significantly more incidents than others, so caution must be keeping them all alive!

Andrew

[Moray]

I find teaching a AOWD course or specialities easyer than OW courses because those students are usualy more relaxed about diving and are not constantly trying to drown semselves A rescue course is fun and a DM just takes a lot of explaining things and showing stuff under water and ironing out the " bad" habbits. But over all they are easyer than OW courses where you constantly have to be on your toes.
Just my 2 cents worth

Michael

[Scuba1]

Sorry posted that one under Rebeccas name


Michael

[Dive In Paphos]

Oh Go on then..................Been watching this thread for a while and finally decided to stick me 2 bob's/cents/sheckles/rubles in.

A newly qualified OWSI (Any agency) I beleive should be limited to teaching basic courses until they have gained enough experience in fundamentals to move on.

I totally agree with comments made about new Instructors team/buddy-teaching with experienced ones. Unfortuantley in some real-world applications this is not possible (I wish it were) I have witnessed some very dodgy calls when dealing with interperation of standards.

This includes one staff instructor when asked how his O/W student was progressing with mask skills replied that she was fine. Probing a wee bit further I asked about no-mask breathing and he told me that she had completed the required time, but then surfaced and replaced her mask.

I asked him if, in his opinion, the skill was complete, to which he replied the skill was to breathe underwater without a mask for not less than 1 minute. At that point I walked away and said we would have a chat later!

Following on from the above point, I have met an awful lot of Instructors who can not plan or lead a dive. This is where it gets a little scary. How can someone teach DM/DL when they cant DM/DL themselves ? I have witnessed this on more than occasions than I wish to go into. A DM/DL is split between acting as an Instuctional assistant or guiding divers. If they can do one and not the other is it their fault? No of course not, it is down to ther Instructor. How can an instructor with only a basic understanding of teaching/scoring skills be expected to mark the beginning of a leadership level qualification?

I really do wish that some Instructors would leave their ego's at the door, wind their necks in and teach to the level their experience dictates. FFS, when a DM/DL is signed off the Instructor is telling the world that their candidates are ready to go on and take Instructor level courses! Discretion is the better part of valour methinks!


DM/DL candidates reading this please choose your Intructor carefully. It is the Instructor who will make your course and try and give you as much experience as he/she can. Do not be afraid to ask questions.

To summarise my rant (apologies if a lot of this has been covered before). I beleive that training is purchased...certification is gained...qualification...is then earned via experience. You can not buy or train experience!

Ok soap box kicked over now.

Have a good Christmas and all that Malarkey.

Jonno