The Instructor Debate

[Andrew H]

Since this has been mentioned on the "biggest problem with diving" thread I thought I'd kick off.

Do you feel it is possible to become an adequate open water instructor as fast as is currently permitted?

As I have mentioned elsewhere, I went from open water diver to instructor in 13 weeks. I did a full time course with Waikato Dive Centre in New Zealand. And went from an open water diver with less than 50 dives, to PADI OWSI by way of advanced open water and some 13 specialties including nitrox, deep, night, drift and altitude. One week I was training to be a dive master and three weeks later I was qualified to teach the course!

I would have to say that it was a fantastic experience. I spent three or four days a week diving, the rest was generally split between classroom and pool work. The diving was varied and interesting, probably more varied than many divers will ever do, and as the course progressed we became increasingly professional, kitting up efficiently and the group was a pleasure to dive with.

While many people argue that one year is not enough experience, on this I must disagree. 100 dives spread over ten years is only ten dives a year. That's barely diving at all. The same dives during one year is ten times as intensive. I have seen non divers following the same course, though not the IDC / IE, go from non divers to well skilled professional divers in ten weeks. Some of the more experienced divers on the course had well ingrained poor skills and improved far less. Surely if your first forty dives are done with skilled instructors, then your skills will be more finely tuned. More so if it is already known that you will be progressing to instructor. For a PADI diver I have logged an awfull lot of pool time.

Of the people I trained with, two already had jobs as DM's and were moving up. One went on to teach in Tanzania. One got a job teaching long courses with a different outfit and two of us taught part time. I taught part time for a year, and I felt well prepared to teach students. The only thing I felt underprepared for was actually getting the point across to the student. Although you have mastered your hover and your demonstration of it is picture perfect, actually persuading your students to do it in the pool is quite different. You know just what to say, but they just don't seem to do it! Obviously with practice the process becomes more easy. I don't feel that the early students received worse training, they just received it more slowly. On other elementary skills such as mask clearing I felt overly prepared as during training "students" would throw away their mask, spit out their reg and bolt for the surface. I never had a real student do all three! I should say the "students" would try because the point is to not let them. I would be interested to hear how this compares with more traditionally trained instructors. Unless you DM or AI for more experienced instructors, in the PADI system it would be hard to get experience with "real" students.

As I said before I was barely qualified as a DM when I was qualified to teach them. I have never taught one. If you found an employer willing to let an inexperienced instructor teach DM's then you have found a reckless one. I'm not saying that it couldn't be done, just that it wouldn't be sensible. I was broken in slowly by the centre I trained with, with several open water courses and some advanced courses which are often consecutive. The experienced instructors at the shop would very rarely teach open water, which suited them just fine, and the boss would tend to get wet as little as possible (usually only IDC's). I was lucky enough to do most of my training with the boss, who is PADI course director, IANTD instructor and BSAC trained. Obviously this had an impact on my experience.

The other thing often overlooked in this issue is that despite being qualified, it does not guarantee employment. OK in some areas it is significantly more easy than others, but I would have had to move to another town/another country to get a full time job given the competitive nature of the market. Experienced instructors are more in demand. I had people on my course who even if highly qualified, would be extremely unlikely to get a job. I certainly wouldn't want to learn from them.

What do people who disagree with this idea believe? Ten years? Five hundred dives? How much would an open water course cost then? Remember that very little of the world has BSAC. Even by it's own admission it can take a long time to learn to dive with a club. Do BSAC schools now have a similar route to instructor level. I'm not interested in BSAC bashing (on this thread I'm just curious.

Hmmm. May have got carried away there! Probably forgot something anyway!
Anyone care to start for the other side?

Andrew

[Helen F H]

When i used to teach kayaking i became an instructor the slow and hard way. I worked my way up through the ranks, gaining new skills and the tickets that went with them. Then i went on and did my level 1 coach and spent a couple of seasons assisting with groups. Then when i hit 18 i did my level 2 coach and started being a proper instructor, running my own courses etc. So from my first go, to my qualification was about 5 years.

I used to hate working with people who had been to college and got their ticket in a matter of months. They were fine until something out of the ordinary happened, then they hadnt got a clue! The experience that helps you in that situation simply was not there.

I also used to run the canoe club. I did this because i enjoyed teaching kids (god only knows why), and therefore i think that showed in the quality of the teaching they got. I didnt have to be there, i did it because i wanted to share the joy of the sport with others, not to earn money ( i did it for free).

Eventually i got sick of it, and since breaking my wrist i do not have the strength necessary to rescue a full kayak and empty it (most of them are around 300 litres in volume). So i packed in.

[johnkendall]

Hmmm, This could be a very interesting topic.

I totally agree that If a diver has only done 10 dives a year (even for the last 10 years) they are not ready to be an instructor. I also feel that 13 weeks from Novice to instructor (Even diving 3 or 4 days a week) will not make a good instructor. The issue that I see is that a trainee will not have experienced enough issues for them to be totally happy in the water.

For example: Panic. Have you had a buddy panic on you underwater? (And I don't mean an instructor pretending to do so). Have you experienced cold, dark diving. Have you experienced really bad swell, and tried to get back onto a boat or into the shore? Have you dived with lots of other people, and learnt new tricks, or seen ways that it shouldn't be done.

The only way to be a good instructor is to really know your stuff. You don't have to be an expert on every part of diving, but you have to know enough about everything in diving to answer your students questions (And they will be varied). You do have to have a high skill level, but you also have to know lots of different ways of doing things, That way when a student has an issue, you can suggest alternatives.

When I became an assistant Instructor I was really not prepared for it. Teaching under the watchful eyes of experienced instructors helped me gain a lot, but it took quite a long time. By the time I passed my Exam and became a Club Instructor, I was very prepared for it. I had taught under supervision in a number of environments, I had also done a hell of a lot of personal diving.

Rushing into becoming an Instructor means that you don't have time to work out why you are diving. Go dive for fun, then think about becoming an instructor once you've done that.

I know that my points are probably very rambling, and not very structured, by the gist of it is that I don't agree with Fast-track instructor courses. (Regardless of which agency it is)

John

[Paul Sharman]

UM,

Below is a bit from the G,S &,P of the Instructor manuial.

Number 4 makes a point!

My own personall opinion is that 26 weeks is too soon for the magority of potential instructors never mind 13.

Cheers.

Paul.

Instructor Development Course (IDC) Prerequisites

To enroll in an IDC, an individual must:

1. Be certified as a PADI Divemaster or hold a leadership level certification

with another recreational diver training organization.

2. Be at least 18 years of age.

3. Submit medical clearance for diving signed by a physician, attesting to

fitness to dive. The medical clearance must be current within the

previous 12 months. The physician signing the medical clearance cannot

be the applicant.

4. Have been a certified diver for at least six months and have completed

and logged at least 60

scuba dives showing experience in night diving, deep

diving and underwater navigation

(as documented in the individual’s log

book.)

[daz]

I don't think there is a definitive answer,

Sure some people may take the fast track route and become instructors quickly, they may even be good instructors in their area of expertise. For instance if they do a fast track course in the caribbean and they subsequently teach holiday divers how to dive in the caribbean they may do a adequate job.

What they will not be able to do is anticipate how competent that student will be for diving in the UK due to lack of experience of UK diving.

Where as, an instructor who is experienced in challenging conditions may ensure the students are more capable and ready for more challenging conditions (although they may just do the bare minimum to meet the standards).

Without doubt the best teacher is experience and this holds true for instructors, those with more experience of diving in different conditions and those who have experienced many different scenarios will usually be more able instructors and more knowledgable.

Just my thoughts.

Daz

[Andrew H]

When I trained it was 100 dives and one year for instructor. I went from open water to instructor in 13 weeks not from non diver. I did do most of my training with people who trained from non diver, and would be continuing their training when they had more experience and time certified.
I have dived in zero viz, and in heavy swell and surge as did all the people on my course. I felt well prepared to teach in the area I qualified in. I fully agree that Red Sea experienced instructorwould be unprepared to teach in UK waters, and although NZ is colder and rougher than that, I don't feel prepared to teach in UK waters. My teaching was, as all teaching should be, done in areas I had dived often before.
I have never had a buddy panic on me. Some people could dive for many years without having this happen, and unfortunately it really isn't something you can train for as such. I have done first dives with some very stressed looking divers, who warranted, and got closely watched.
Teaching as an assistant under more experienced instructors must be part of the BSAC structure. It's hard to see how it could work under a more commercial system. I was lucky to work for a large LDS and had the benefit of working alongside amore experienced instructors many times. The PADI system provides instructors with knowledge far in excess of what is to be taught at open water level (enough to teach DM's) so that it is uncommon to have a student ask a question which is hard to answer. In any case most such discussions are best left for a time outside the course. It is surprisingly easy to ask questions with no simple answers in diving, especially in deco, and it seems that the more you learn the less you know.

I taught whitewater kayaking in the past but had no qualifications for it. I never taught without an experienced instructor there though. Kayaking is a tough one because you don't log trips and as I said before years don't mean much. I have also taught climbing and abseiling. Qualifications are very new to some sports, and have largely come through risk management and liability, rather than poor instruction. Used to be if someone wanted a go you would pick a suitable mission and go with them. Now people want to fork out their money and do the whole nine yards. Someone's going to take their money.

Andrew

[parahandy]

Interesting points you make Andrew and appreciate your honesty.
My take on the IDC is it teaches in as intense and shorter time as possible to be an instructor ie enables you to teach and evaluate those skills as perscribed in the manuals, nothing more nothing less. Its clearly geared up towards setting you up for passing the IE.

Having had conversation with many newly qualified instructors, its often glaringly apparent to them that its "after" you pass the ie that you actually start learning the ropes. I'm not suggesting that he or she isn't safe to teach but I feel the reality is after the IE youre still inexperienced.

I personally have long felt that the previous and current minimum number of dives for entry level to AI or OWSI, isn't sufficient. Perhaps there should be a set longer period that you should spend time as a DM /AI before youre allowed to attend an IDC. Without appearing negative ,theres sometimes a commercial pressure within some dive centres to get you on a IDC. I've personally witnessed some unfortunate potential IDC candidates the week before they were due to attend the IDC /IE, having been pressurised by their instructor that they were supposedly up to standard and ready for an IDC
This particular group had to recieve a remedial course from a Course Director, much to the embarrassment of their instructor( later given the push from padi).

As you've already touched on, becoming an OWSI is now no longer the passport to a instructor job, despite what many are told,you need a minimum of a host of specialities, master scuba diver trainer and Medic First Aid Instructor just to get a look in.

It's a lifestyle thing ain't it "go large" go for a Course Director!!!!

[daz]

Hi Andrew,

Apologies if I misunderstand but you do seem to be trying to justify your ability to instruct. Please don't take any of the replies personally afterall the question itself is likely to gain some contraversial answers.

Anyway some interesting points.

Originally Posted by Andrew H

I have dived in zero viz, and in heavy swell and surge as did all the people on my course. I felt well prepared to teach in the area I qualified in. I fully agree that Red Sea experienced instructorwould be unprepared to teach in UK waters, and although NZ is colder and rougher than that, I don't feel prepared to teach in UK waters. My teaching was, as all teaching should be, done in areas I had dived often before.

Agree and in my experience most instructors I have met will also only teach once they are comfortable with their local conditions, admittedly it is not enforcable but common sense seems to prevail.

Originally Posted by Andrew H

I have never had a buddy panic on me. Some people could dive for many years without having this happen, and unfortunately it really isn't something you can train for as such. I have done first dives with some very stressed looking divers, who warranted, and got closely watched.

This is actually something I feel is an unfair expectation for exactly the reason you state. It is not something you can train for and regardless of how much experience you get, you may never experience it. Being aware and prepared for the eventuality will minimise it happening anyway.

As for dealing with it if it does happen, the rescue course and IDC/IE does in my opinion provide perfectly adaquate training for the eventuality. How the person deals with it if it happens is dependent on the individual.

Originally Posted by Andrew H

Teaching as an assistant under more experienced instructors must be part of the BSAC structure. It's hard to see how it could work under a more commercial system. I was lucky to work for a large LDS and had the benefit of working alongside amore experienced instructors many times.

Um well it does exist in the PADI system, The role of a DM and also AI, the experience you gain in either of these roles when working with instructors can be invaluable for when and if the individuals goes on to be a OWSI. I personally feel that the experience I gained as a DM over a 8 month period working with a vast number of instructors and students over many different courses gave me extremely valuable experiences that I could not of got from fast tracking to OWSI.

Personally I have met very experienced instructors who are brilliant, I have also met newly qualified instructors who are extremely competent and have the potential to be truly great instructors.

Unfortunately I have also met newly qualified instructors who I would not trust to teach anyone I cared for. Usually due to their attitude or how they react in a real stress situation.

Mostly it comes down to having the right attitude and composure. I don't believe this is something that the PADI IDC/IE can adaquately test. Not sure what the answer is really although I do believe a extended internship, kind of a probationary Instructor would weed these out or help the individuals in changing their attitudes.

Anyway don't pay any attention to me, I chose to work as a DM in training for 8 months before doing my AI and still do quite a bit DMing. Over the last few months for many of the reasons above I shelved all plans for doing a IDC/IE - there were a few events that occured that devalued the whole system for me, so I'm probably just a cynical old bastard.

If you enjoy it and you know you do a good job stick with it.

Daz

[Mdemon]

If one accepts that the aim of being an instructor is to safely impart enough knowledge (and practice) into your student to enable them to safely carry out the aims of the course then going straight to instructor shouldn't be a problem. There are some born instructors/teachers and all you have to do is give them the subject matter and off they go. Others take longer.

If you consider that an instructor should be very experienced in the subject and be able to react to emergencies during training then that is a different set of requirements altogether.

It is too easy I think to point out people such as yourself and ask what experience you might have, but frankly that isn't what the student pays for (albeit desireable). The student is paying to learn the subject matter, to be able to achieve the course aims and to be proven to be able to achieve those course aims (through certification). If you have 100 or 1000 dives is immaterial.

Until something goes wrong.

[cdiver2]

a instructer needs as more experiance, eg I went to school to learn how to drive a 18 wheeler and took to it like a duck to water, could I instruct from the book yes. only problem is after I had passed and got on the road it was another world. My instructers told me "it was not a license to drive but a license to learn" Thats why a company will not let someone go out on there own for at least another six week (24/7) with another driver. And I can tell you it is frighiting the first fewdays by yourself .